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Brushing improvements


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#1 Andrew Shpagin

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 06:20 PM

Please post there your feedback regarding recent brushing system update. I think we may polish it together very well.
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#2 artman

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 06:55 PM

It seems Absolute brush does not like to cross previous strokes that were drawn using RemoveStretching.
abs.jpg

Edit:Could you make it that CreaseClay slider is in reality 0to300%while still displaying 0to100%.
Also Invert tool action checkbox is very needed there,Creaseclay in additive mode is very powerful but
holding Ctrl for long time is bad for comfort and precision of strokes.
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#3 human0id

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 11:12 PM

Hey Andrew, I've recorded a few strokes to show the brush behaviour. GL is awesome! DX is still bumpy, especially on slow strokes, interpolate doesn't help in this case. Small brush sizes produce more bumps than big sizes (at least it feels like). Drawing with constant depth and radius produces no bumps. Pen pressure in Prefs is set to 1023, brush sensitivity is 1. Wacom Prefs pressure compatibility is checked.

In the 2nd part of the video watch the inflate clay brush in the new version, it's not working like it was before, please fix it.



#4 digman

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 01:11 AM

Hey Andrew, I've recorded a few strokes to show the brush behaviour. GL is awesome! DX is still bumpy, especially on slow strokes, interpolate doesn't help in this case. Small brush sizes produce more bumps than big sizes (at least it feels like). Drawing with constant depth and radius produces no bumps. Pen pressure in Prefs is set to 1023, brush sensitivity is 1. Wacom Prefs pressure compatibility is checked.

In the 2nd part of the video watch the inflate clay brush in the new version, it's not working like it was before, please fix it.


InflateClay is still there but you have to dial the depth higher that 100% for it to stamp the alpha in one click or pen press. I think there will be some adjustments to the percentage gauge as Andrew polishes the brushes..
I tested and was setting mine at 300% to 1000% for testing purposes and it was stamping them like in the other versions...
300% now is like 100% use to be for the LC InflateClay brush
I also love the stamping part of inflateClay as you can stamp all kinds of detail on your models....

#5 digman

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 01:23 AM

Ok Andrew, I will test over the next fews days as I get time and a big thank you again!

I will post this one video as it concerns the Draw brush in surface mode and goes with the video post above this one. This brush is not a
refection of the other brushes but the one that seems to have problems still...

I get great looking smooth slow strokes using LC with my own created brushes and alphas with the new update of today...

Testing:
DX mode
Draw Brush in surface mode
First brush in the e-panel (radius and depth)
No spacing
No reduce stretching selected
No falloff
No focal shift
depth 50%
Radius 6.75
Default alpha (Top right, last one)
Sphere 500,000
Non-Cuda 32 bit

In the first part of the video, I make a slower stroke and you get the bumps, In the second part of the video I hold down the "W"
key (wireframe mode) while brushing a slow stroke and the resulting strokes are very smooth and clean.

Why wireframe would make a difference, I do not know...


#6 run

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 11:54 AM

Voxel surface brushing GL is still much better than DX, but DX does seem a little less bumpy/blobbly now.

In DX if you turn on "use spacing" and set spacing to 5% it will yield a nice smooth stroke,
but this reveals some other issues

I've noticed that with a standard brush a stroke's cross section profile doesn't really match the brush's
cross section profile. This is true in both DX and GL, but this mismatch is much more pronounced in DX.

Liveclay results in a better match, but in DX it just isn't as good match.

To me this feels like it might be a surface normal problem.

To do it's thing I assume a brush must gather info about the surface it's going over.
If DX sends, what ends up being (for whatever reason) incorrect normal or averaged normal data,
occasional big errors in that data could easily account for a "bump" in that stroke.

The use of a smaller spacing might provide more samples and eliminate those big errors which makes for a smoother
stroke, but if the normal is still incorrect that might cause a constant virtual tilt to the brush which could possibly
account for the profile mismatch.

Of course this is all just supposition on my part, with no real knowledge of what's actually going on,
so I wouldn't be surprise if it was completely and totally wrong :)

What really interests me though is it seems like Andrew doesn't experience this on his test machines.
And I'm very curious about what could be different between those and the systems that do get problems with DX.

I get the problem with both these configurations

XP sp3 32-bit, intel chipset & cpu, GeForce 7900 GS driver 191.07, with an Intuos 2
DirectX 9.0c (4.09.0000.0904)

and

Win7 64-bit, intel chipset & cpu, GeForce 280M driver 258.96 notebook, with an Intuos 4 wireless
Direct 11 built in (it's what comes up if you run dxdiag), but like everyone with
win7 or vista has to do, I added DirectX 9 per the 3DC install instructions.
I used directx_mar2009_redist.exe (downloaded from Microsoft)

Those are two very different systems, but for me the problem is identical on both machines,
and 100 percent repeatable, so I really wonder what the common difference is. :)

Hmm, wait a minute, just a crazy thought; maybe Andrew has AMD based computers?

-Jeff

#7 Andrew Shpagin

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 12:11 PM

digman, human0id, run - does the same happen in paint room?

#8 Andrew Shpagin

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 12:33 PM

Also, what settings are in Preferences->Brush pressure levels number ?

Check if all jitters in brrush option are zero.

#9 run

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 12:46 PM

OK, this is very weird

I get blobs in the DX paintroom, see attached image.
But only after brushing in voxel surface mode.

If I go directly to the paintroom the paint lines are perfectly smooth,
like the GL example.

EDIT


In preferences:
Brush pressure levels 1023
Brush sensitivity 1

In Brush options:
zero pressure radius 0.15
Depth Modulator 1
All other options are 0 or off
Pressure sensitive options are
set to mouse not pen

MORE EDIT (again)

OK for moment there I thought had a fix, but sadly it doesn't seem to last

It's weird but it worked great for me for awhile (on 32-bit)
In the brush options panel switch all the pressure sensitivity icons
to "pen", (I did this in the paintroom, but I don't if that's important)

And WHAM, that was it!

Everything's was fixed and brushing worked perfectly in 3DC DX!!!
but when I tried the fix on the win7 machine it didn't work

Then I went back the 32-bit machine and tried brushing on a new layer
and no more perfect, and I haven't been able to get it back.
Bummer.

-Jeff

Attached Thumbnails

  • paintroom_blobs_01.jpg


#10 Andrew Shpagin

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 01:42 PM

Seems I found the reason. Funny, it happes if FPS is too high. GL a bit slower, so works well there :)
It is still theoretical (can't reproduce exactly), but I am 99% sure that's the reason.
You may check it if you turn off incremental render - fps will fall and strokes will be good.
I will update build today.

#11 human0id

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 01:43 PM

No bumps in Paintroom here (the little jittering in the video is only my hand :D ). With Interpolate on totally smooth.

InflateClay is still there but you have to dial the depth higher that 100% for it to stamp the alpha in one click or pen press.


Thanks for the hint digman!

#12 John Kearney

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 01:46 PM

That's awesome Andrew - that actually sounds right to me because using 3DCoat at home as always felt better to me (inferior PC compared to the one I use at work). If it is the solution then I'd like to thank you for taking the time to address this issue. As I'm sure you're aware, it's been problematic for a lot of users for a while so this is a huge boost to 3D Coat.

Is the next step to tune each brush and ensure that there are good default values/settings?

#13 John Kearney

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 02:06 PM

Interesting that you mention the crease brush because that's always felt a little weak to me too - especially when compared to the competition. I'm not sure if it's just a case of tuning the settings but in my experience, it hasn't given me the results that I'd expect. Perhaps this is better now that Andrew has reworked the code - I'll have to test.

#14 Andrew Shpagin

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 02:10 PM

ok, I will increase crease action 3x times

#15 haikalle

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 02:13 PM

The only brush that really needs work for me at the moment is creaseclay which needs an inbed like in zbrush.
It pinch a lot but don't really carve into the surface, making very light creases (i need to push the depth to around 800 to get sensible results).
In fact I would go as far as say Andrew got most of the brush right but the performance was so bad (compared to what it is now) that we couldn't see it.


I agree. CreaseClay is a little too weak at the moment.

#16 digman

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 02:30 PM

Seems I found the reason. Funny, it happes if FPS is too high. GL a bit slower, so works well there :)
It is stii theoretical (can't reproduce exactly), but I am 99% sure it is reason.
You may check it if you will turn off incremental render - fps will fall and strokes will be good.
I will update build today.



I do think you found the reason...
I checked my FPS just now when I brushed a stroke and my FPS went from 95 to 370 (DX mode)
Your FPS goes up (140) but not as high 370 when brushing in wireframe mode so it produces even brush strokes (as shown in the video) in DX mode.
Jitter is unchecked on all my test. I double check my testing parameters and should be as stated in my postings
Tablet setting 1023 on all test, intuos3
I will wait for new build before further testing on the draw brush...

First impression of Voxel grow brush
Voxel grow brush improved, more control at lower extrude settings. Creates more even strokes at lower extrude settings plus smoother in strokes even on lower voxel resolution. I been using surface mode so long now that my opinion on the voxel grow brush might not be as good as someone who uses it all the time...
Smooth brush seems to work better too.
I will have to use the voxel grow brush more to offer a polishing suggestion...

#17 run

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 02:51 PM

You may check it if you will turn off incremental render - fps will fall and strokes will be good.


Ah, that works great!
You just have to make sure the object is dense enough so the fps drop far enough.

I'm really looking forward to the new build!

#18 John Kearney

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 04:52 PM

Nice comparison BeatKitano - I think such things really help. I guess the idea isn't necessarily just to emulate the other packages, but perhaps to try and improve on them too.

You end up with a really nice clean line in the 3D Coat example but the thing I find most striking is that the initial brush stroke looks better in the ZBrush picture - did you use the same sort of brush for each of those initial strokes? The ZBrush one looks much better for organic style creases/wrinkles as it doesn't look like a 'rut' that has scraped through the mesh - it just has a better shape to it IMHO.

#19 Andrew Shpagin

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 05:51 PM

Updated build in main thread.

Changes:

- dotting in DX version fixed (I hope)
- Invert tool action for appropriate tools
- stronger Crease clay
- fixed couple of bugs related to brushing over transformed volumes
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#20 human0id

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 06:18 PM

- dotting in DX version fixed (I hope)


Confirmed, smooth as silk :)
edit: works best with this alpha (all to the right)
Posted Image




ps: but crease clay behaves a bit weird. I make a video soon.




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