Jump to content


Notice about Feature Requests & Bug Reports

The bug reporting and feature request forums (except for the Urgent Help section) are going away soon! Please use Mantis to report any bugs and feature requests. the link to Mantis is:
3d-coat.com/mantis/

Read more about it HERE.

Photo

Farsthary update channel


  • Please log in to reply
482 replies to this topic

#81 ghib

ghib

    Novice

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 486 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London

Posted 25 August 2011 - 10:23 AM

You're alone here phil.


sorry, not quite alone.
Lionhead Studios

#82 michalis

michalis

    Expert

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,479 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:athens, now

Posted 25 August 2011 - 10:26 AM

You both are alone. :D

OK not joking now:
Instead of not using sculptris,
As long Farsthary's tools are in pre alpha,
why don't you try to build a workflow between Sculptris and 3dcoat?
Start in 3dc, export tri decimated mesh, work more in Sc, drop it to voxels again or anything else...
Trying to understand how these two modes can work together.
This will help Andrew and Raul a lot.

There's an issue when trying to bake a dynamic tessellated mesh on the retopo cage.
Some areas with less density... a heavy triangulated artifact, on normal and displacement maps.
Similar when merging a low density mesh in voxels mode (the cylinder-sphere etc)

Dropping to hi density voxels could be a solution but it isn't as voxels will capture these tris as well.
I really like to hear you opinions on this, Raul's or Andrew's too.
MACOSX,
3DC bug reports here:
http://www.3d-coat.com/mantis

#83 MADjestic

MADjestic

    Neophyte

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 53 posts

Posted 25 August 2011 - 12:04 PM

The benefit of sculptris (the way I understand what michalis meant, by calling it 'perfect') is that there are 2 or 3 brushes in total (I may be wrong there - correct me please) and with these few brushes you can do whole variety of things - it's so simple and at the same time so versatile - simplicity and versatility - that's something one could call 'perfect'.

#84 michalis

michalis

    Expert

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,479 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:athens, now

Posted 25 August 2011 - 12:42 PM

@ MADjestic
Yes, sculptris has the perfect UI, the tools aren't 2-3 they are a lot more, it's a clever UI.
But it's unfair to compare it with 3dcoat or zbrush, these last are huge massive apps not just a sculpting tool.

Still waiting for some opinions on my previews question... It isn't the first time I'm asking...
MACOSX,
3DC bug reports here:
http://www.3d-coat.com/mantis

#85 MADjestic

MADjestic

    Neophyte

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 53 posts

Posted 25 August 2011 - 12:52 PM

@ MADjestic
Yes, sculptris has the perfect UI, the tools aren't 2-3 they are a lot more, it's a clever UI.
But it's unfair to compare it with 3dcoat or zbrush, these last are huge massive apps not just a sculpting tool.

Still waiting for some opinions on my previews question... It isn't the first time I'm asking...


What's the question?

#86 michalis

michalis

    Expert

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,479 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:athens, now

Posted 25 August 2011 - 01:10 PM

There's an issue when trying to bake a dynamic tessellated mesh on the retopo cage.
Some areas with less density... a heavy triangulated artifact, on normal and displacement maps.
Similar when merging a low density mesh in voxels mode (the cylinder-sphere etc)

Dropping to hi density voxels could be a solution but it isn't as voxels will capture these tris as well.
I really like to hear you opinions on this, Raul's or Andrew's too.


Does this capture helps?
Normally, a renderer can smooth these triangles. But when projecting a topo cage on it... or when just dropping it to hi density voxels... ??

Posted Image

I know, smoothed 3dcoat rendering when baking can stop it. Indeed, losing crispness. But when I used displacement map (MV baking), here again, just more blurred which is worst.
Posted Image
MACOSX,
3DC bug reports here:
http://www.3d-coat.com/mantis

#87 michalis

michalis

    Expert

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,479 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:athens, now

Posted 25 August 2011 - 02:22 PM

@BeatKitano
Well in this test there're all degrees of density, only hi density areas are acceptable. How hi? Close to voxels ~6M or higher.
So, a surface has to be more or less evenly subdivided, this will provide a nice baked texture.
The other solution is to start resculpting in zbrush or in sculpt room (we don't have it yet). These tris don't really exist. Only captured on the cage topo mesh.

How much LC or dynamic tessellation helps... please tell me. Why not just voxels?
BTW a LC that will work on a 5-6 M mesh, I don't believe that we'll see it soon, if we ever see this. Not easy at all.

I noticed this when testing sculptris beta. Still no answer from dr petters though.
I believe that there isn't any real solution on this. Except smoothing.
MACOSX,
3DC bug reports here:
http://www.3d-coat.com/mantis

#88 michalis

michalis

    Expert

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,479 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:athens, now

Posted 25 August 2011 - 02:47 PM

I used the smaller possible brush with higher as possible density in some areas. Even there a closer look will show you the problem.
The only overcomplicating thing I've done was to use projection method in zbrush. The second example from MV mode is smoother but I don't like it. Andrew is working on this issue (blurred disp-textures).
MACOSX,
3DC bug reports here:
http://www.3d-coat.com/mantis

#89 philnolan3d

philnolan3d

    Master

  • Moderator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,419 posts

  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Philadelphia, PA, USA
  • Interests:3D, martial arts, anime, gaming, contact juggling

Posted 25 August 2011 - 03:17 PM

Are you sure it's not just the shader you're using? here's the same thing with a depth shader I made, then with one of the older style shaders. The non-depth one is perfectly smooth.


Posted ImagePosted Image

Edit: Oh OK I misunderstood, I do see a slight issue when baking to MV.

Posted Image
Phil Nolan
Generalist
www.philnolan3d.com - Twitter - Google+
Desktop: Win8.1 Pro x64, Core i7 3.4 GHz, GeForce GT 640, 16GB RAM
Laptop: Vista Home Prem x86, Core 2 Duo, 1.5 GHz, GeForce 8600M GS, 2GB RAM

#90 michalis

michalis

    Expert

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,479 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:athens, now

Posted 25 August 2011 - 07:01 PM

OK guys, I just noticed this, some months ago (sculptris). Yeap, low density meshes will have the same problem when baked. But these may have an evenly subdivided surface and can be easily more subdivided. What is happening on dynamic tessellation is a little different. I could say that we may need to just subdivide by 2-4 only in more detailed areas. The remesh tool, only reducer for the moment, should work as smooth as possible and on larger areas. This could have an impact to the speed but it's OK for me.
The worse scenario is to drop the LC mesh to hi density voxels. This triangulated artifact will be more visible there. As it happens with some library low poly meshes when merged.
MACOSX,
3DC bug reports here:
http://www.3d-coat.com/mantis

#91 Gilded

Gilded

    Neophyte

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 79 posts

Posted 25 August 2011 - 09:37 PM

My workflow's been Sculptiris (to make a sculpt obj), 3dcoat (to make a retopo obj with UVs), xNormal (bake any maps I need based on the two objs), 3dcoat (do any final details, texturing, etc with maps). A little bit all over the place but, I'm getting more reliable results (artifacts in 3dc bakes were becoming frustrating).

I'd rather bake with xNormal as of now because there are a lot of settings and control. So far my results have been very smooth, but I mostly do normal map work and I believe you are looking for displacement, so this may not be a fruitful suggestion (but who knows). I've generated displacement maps and they seem to take the triangulation into account (there may be a setting to get what you want though).

#92 philnolan3d

philnolan3d

    Master

  • Moderator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,419 posts

  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Philadelphia, PA, USA
  • Interests:3D, martial arts, anime, gaming, contact juggling

Posted 25 August 2011 - 09:42 PM

I'd rather bake with xNormal as of now because there are a lot of settings and control. So far my results have been very smooth, but I mostly do normal map work and I believe you are looking for displacement, so this may not be a fruitful suggestion (but who knows). I've generated displacement maps and they seem to take the triangulation into account (there may be a setting to get what you want though).


I've actually spent days this past weekend fighting with 3DC, xNormal, LightWave, and even max, trying to get a decent displacement map for my current character.
Phil Nolan
Generalist
www.philnolan3d.com - Twitter - Google+
Desktop: Win8.1 Pro x64, Core i7 3.4 GHz, GeForce GT 640, 16GB RAM
Laptop: Vista Home Prem x86, Core 2 Duo, 1.5 GHz, GeForce 8600M GS, 2GB RAM

#93 MADjestic

MADjestic

    Neophyte

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 53 posts

Posted 26 August 2011 - 10:51 AM

Does this capture helps?
Normally, a renderer can smooth these triangles. But when projecting a topo cage on it... or when just dropping it to hi density voxels... ??

Posted Image

I know, smoothed 3dcoat rendering when baking can stop it. Indeed, losing crispness. But when I used displacement map (MV baking), here again, just more blurred which is worst.
Posted Image


Hmm, I've been working through the same problem but from a completely different perspective - doing some Houdini terrain generation problem (high-res texture baked onto lowres poly model). My solution was to generate a high-res normal map (for which I used render stage subdivision (render as subdivision surface), which reduces the mesh size to the size of a ray sample) and applied the normal map to get final vertices normals, while displacement map was used to do the actual vertices displacement. Once again:
1) Render a high-res normal map
2) Apply it to get final normals, together with displacement map, in the shader of your model.

#94 michalis

michalis

    Expert

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,479 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:athens, now

Posted 26 August 2011 - 01:50 PM

@MADjestic
lol, this is my usual method. Real displacement for 3-4 subdivision levels, a second normal (or better for cycles) displ map, baked from this point of subdivisions. It's important for physically correct results.

If not, here, notice how unnatural bumps look.
http://3d-coat.com/f...indpost&p=64166
MACOSX,
3DC bug reports here:
http://www.3d-coat.com/mantis

#95 AbnRanger

AbnRanger

    Master

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,214 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 26 August 2011 - 02:13 PM

I've actually spent days this past weekend fighting with 3DC, xNormal, LightWave, and even max, trying to get a decent displacement map for my current character.

Phil, what I would try to do is bake the character without the hair...that should be easy enough with any of those tools. If not, then something is awry in the process. But with the Hair, screw displacement maps, in my opinion. Either keep it low poly (no displacement) w/ Normal maps or just make it a hair cap, and give it as much geometry as needed. That's what I did with my little Hobbit character's hair (that I used the Muscles tool to sculpt). I didn't fool with displacement. You can assign a proxy to it with most renders, which will then render the high res at render time.

#96 philnolan3d

philnolan3d

    Master

  • Moderator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,419 posts

  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Philadelphia, PA, USA
  • Interests:3D, martial arts, anime, gaming, contact juggling

Posted 26 August 2011 - 04:47 PM

Phil, what I would try to do is bake the character without the hair...that should be easy enough with any of those tools. If not, then something is awry in the process. But with the Hair, screw displacement maps, in my opinion. Either keep it low poly (no displacement) w/ Normal maps or just make it a hair cap, and give it as much geometry as needed. That's what I did with my little Hobbit character's hair (that I used the Muscles tool to sculpt). I didn't fool with displacement. You can assign a proxy to it with most renders, which will then render the high res at render time.


It's not just the hair, the export form 3DC is too flat all over but actually some parts of the face looked the weirdest. Some parts had such low depth that I would increase it in LW, then I'd go look at her face and it was blown up like she had the worlds worst peanut allergy.
Phil Nolan
Generalist
www.philnolan3d.com - Twitter - Google+
Desktop: Win8.1 Pro x64, Core i7 3.4 GHz, GeForce GT 640, 16GB RAM
Laptop: Vista Home Prem x86, Core 2 Duo, 1.5 GHz, GeForce 8600M GS, 2GB RAM

#97 Digital777

Digital777

    Novice

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 475 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 26 August 2011 - 05:10 PM

Sculptris is good for free but opinions about it shouldn't really be in this thread really unless it's discussion about tools Farsthary is working on or things can go offtopic. I like the suggestion of a crease brush though which would be useful. One thing i think would work well is dropdown modes so with tools you have variations and can use the same tool in a few different ways, it also lets the GUI stay simple rather than a huge menu. :)

#98 farsthary

farsthary

    Novice

  • 3D-Coat Developer
  • PipPip
  • 194 posts

  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:3D R&D

Posted 27 August 2011 - 09:20 PM

Hi guys :)

A couple of Good news! new updates in the beta builds include our latest improvements and stabilization to LiveClay tools and also the new brushes: Wrinkle (can do creases like in Sculptris, use large displacements) , Tube (strong normal extrusion) and Snake (yes, what you have being waiting for ;))
http://farsthary.wor...veclay-feature/

cheers
Farsthary

#99 michalis

michalis

    Expert

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,479 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:athens, now

Posted 27 August 2011 - 09:38 PM

Not the OSX build. Snake works terribly.
BTW Raul.
Where is the build tool, the move tool, and the remesher (reducer) +and - ? I mean the basic tools to start with?
You probably already noticed that I'm somehow not a positive guy. This is correct.
I never regret saying NOW, I regret for lot of YES actually.
MACOSX,
3DC bug reports here:
http://www.3d-coat.com/mantis

#100 wailingmonkey

wailingmonkey

    Apprentice

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 701 posts

Posted 27 August 2011 - 09:50 PM

what a thoughtful response to the sharing of positive information, michalis! </sarcasm> :rofl:


*edit* after seeing your own edit, evidently you are aware of your own tendency for drama! ;)
  • Colwax likes this
-portfolio-


Vista Ultimate SP1 64bit | Q6600 2.40 GHZ | 8GB RAM | Nvidia GTX 560ti




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users