Jump to content


Notice about Feature Requests & Bug Reports

The bug reporting and feature request forums (except for the Urgent Help section) are going away soon! Please use Mantis to report any bugs and feature requests. the link to Mantis is:
3d-coat.com/mantis/

Read more about it HERE.

Photo

Blender 2.56+ GLSL bump painting


  • Please log in to reply
27 replies to this topic

#1 michalis

michalis

    Expert

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,479 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:athens, now

Posted 18 March 2011 - 02:05 PM

This isn't just about new capabilities of blender.
3DC is better on this, but this excellent tutorial demonstrates the new bl bumps support. Its also an excellent tool for tweaking maps imported from 3dc after a few test renders. It supports displacement maps as bumps.

MACOSX,
3DC bug reports here:
http://www.3d-coat.com/mantis

#2 AbnRanger

AbnRanger

    Master

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,254 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 March 2011 - 03:20 PM

This isn't just about new capabilities of blender.
3DC is better on this, but this excellent tutorial demonstrates the new bl bumps support. Its also an excellent tool for tweaking maps imported from 3dc after a few test renders. It supports displacement maps as bumps.

This is why I personally think it's a bad mistake for Raul to continue working on the LiveClay in Blender while on staff at 3DC. I'm sure he feels it's the "ethical" thing to do, in order to keep from leaving the Blender community hanging. But how can that be the ethical thing to do for the company that hires him? It's not (in my opinion).

It's one thing if he were just "lending a hand" to Andrew as he is doing with Blender, but once one side is PAYING you a salary...it's time to make a clean break, I'm sorry. If Coca Cola hires a manager from Pepsi, there's no moonlighting or "lending a hand" to Pepsi any further. Years ago, I worked as a route driver for Coke, and if anyone saw you drinking a Pepsi product, you'd be fired on the spot. Blender is a competitor to 3D Coat...even more so as Raul develops LiveClay for them. There was some conversation recently, over at Newtek, I think, where one of the members brought up a good point. If you have dynamic subdivision in both 3DC and Blender, what's the point in paying for 3DC when you can do much of the same tasks in Blender...for free. Developing the same toolset in a product that gives a prospective customer more reason NOT to buy yours is just fundamentally wrong on many levels.

I've always viewed those who help develop Blender as essentially doing an Internship. Once you get hired on somewhere, what's the point in still continuing the internship? Let someone else do that work. I'm sure the heads at Blender are delighted (for the most part) to see non-paid developers get paying jobs due to their previous work for them.

That's my 2 cents worth, anyway.

#3 michalis

michalis

    Expert

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,479 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:athens, now

Posted 18 March 2011 - 04:14 PM

Abn, I missed something? What Raul has to do with new normal and bumps support of blender?
OK, I see, this video demonstrates real time bump painting in blender. Not nor_maps, just new algorithm on bumps (close to nor quality)
Well, as I said, to paint depth in 3DC is much better. To have the ability to tweak bumps in blender after some render tests is welcome though.
There was a bad supporting of bumps- normaps in blender all these years, now its fine.
Its far away from been a competitor of 3dc paint room.
Blender has a nice sculpting room but its not zbrush either.

But it has a great UV editor (in some cases better than 3dc), new b-spheres are much better than z-spheres-zb), new nurbs are very promising and a new remesh (booleans) is promising too.
I also found great improvement on re-topology (easy now, not 3dc but I could do the job there he he )
The shrinkwrap operations are better than snapping cages of 3dcoat.
The most fascinating for me is that blender goes the way I like. (You already know my ideas about sculpting first - do retopo after or why I prefer to sculpt after topology is done.)

Blender is (and it always be) an experimental project. It wont be a stable or 'professional' app but it has fun. And its free just because of these. :rolleyes:
MACOSX,
3DC bug reports here:
http://www.3d-coat.com/mantis

#4 AbnRanger

AbnRanger

    Master

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,254 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 March 2011 - 06:12 PM

Abn, I missed something? What Raul has to do with new normal and bumps support of blender?
OK, I see, this video demonstrates real time bump painting in blender. Not nor_maps, just new algorithm on bumps (close to nor quality)
Well, as I said, to paint depth in 3DC is much better. To have the ability to tweak bumps in blender after some render tests is welcome though.
There was a bad supporting of bumps- normaps in blender all these years, now its fine.
Its far away from been a competitor of 3dc paint room.
Blender has a nice sculpting room but its not zbrush either.

But it has a great UV editor (in some cases better than 3dc), new b-spheres are much better than z-spheres-zb), new nurbs are very promising and a new remesh (booleans) is promising too.
I also found great improvement on re-topology (easy now, not 3dc but I could do the job there he he )
The shrinkwrap operations are better than snapping cages of 3dcoat.
The most fascinating for me is that blender goes the way I like. (You already know my ideas about sculpting first - do retopo after or why I prefer to sculpt after topology is done.)

Blender is (and it always be) an experimental project. It wont be a stable or 'professional' app but it has fun. And its free just because of these. :rolleyes:

You were making the point that it was inching closer in functionality to 3D Coat....and I agree. All the more reason, in my opinion, that it's a bad idea for Raul to co-develop Dynamic Subdivision for BOTH 3DC and Blender. If it's an all volunteer (free) effort, that's one thing, but he's being paid by one and not the other, and the one that's not paying him is benefiting the most because they are a free application which does compete directly with 3DC for many tasks. Many prospective customers will look at 3DC and then Blender and say "why do I need to pay $350 for one when the other can do what I want for free?" So, not only is Raul assisting Andrew's competitor, but it's also forcing him to compete with a free product.

#5 parel

parel

    Novice

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 123 posts

Posted 18 March 2011 - 06:16 PM

Question is- Would you rather have Raul or not? I dont think it is unethical at all since he cleared it BEFORE the hire.

#6 AbnRanger

AbnRanger

    Master

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,254 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 March 2011 - 06:22 PM

Question is- Would you rather have Raul or not? I dont think it is unethical at all since he cleared it BEFORE the hire.

I doesn't matter whether I'm glad he's on the team or not...or even whether something was "cleared" or not. The sum total is that by agreeing to be hired to join the staff, a conflict of interest arises by continuing to develop the same technology for a direct competitor. You know full well you wouldn't appreciate a new hire moonlighting with a studio that was directly competing for the same jobs you were bidding on.

#7 haikalle

haikalle

    Journeymen

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,360 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Finland

Posted 18 March 2011 - 07:24 PM

I dont' see having some of the tools to be the same a big problem. Because eventually sculpting tools are better in 3d-coat. Okey they both have dynamic poly sculpting, but does
blender has dynamic voxel sculpting in the future. I think that 3d-coat will support this in the future and blender not.

I know several people that are working for 3d company but they still want to continue to code blender too. That may sound odd to somenone.
But that's the way how it goes. Raul said that one thing why he started 3d-coat team was that he was able to code blender same time.

#8 AbnRanger

AbnRanger

    Master

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,254 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 March 2011 - 07:33 PM

I dont' see having some of the tools to be the same a big problem. Because eventually sculpting tools are better in 3d-coat. Okey they both have dynamic poly sculpting, but does
blender has dynamic voxel sculpting in the future. I think that 3d-coat will support this in the future and blender not.

I know several people that are working for 3d company but they still want to continue to code blender too. That may sound odd to somenone.
But that's the way how it goes. Raul said that one thing why he started 3d-coat team was that he was able to code blender same time.

I understand the good intentions and all, but there is a natural conflict of interest that cannot be denied. When you choose to join a staff...on any staff, you are there to help them fulfill their vision...not a competitor's. Slice it however you like, it still amounts to divided loyalties....and that's NOT a good thing. Certainly not for Andrew. Blender most definitely IS a competitor, as it offers many of the same capabilities and beyond. ZBrush and Mudbox have features that aren't found in 3DC and vice versa....that doesn't make them any less of a competitor in the same market. Blender is an even tougher pill to swallow because it's free.

#9 haikalle

haikalle

    Journeymen

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,360 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Finland

Posted 18 March 2011 - 07:41 PM

If Andrew had forced Raul to not finish his UnlimitedClay for blender, he would have got more enemies than friends. Trust me.

#10 AbnRanger

AbnRanger

    Master

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,254 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 March 2011 - 07:49 PM

If Andrew had forced Raul to not finish his UnlimitedClay for blender, he would have got more enemies than friends. Trust me.

How so? It's a promotion, for Pete's sake...are you kidding me? Get mad because he found paying work, and that further work on it would create a HUGE conflict of interest? This is a common sense issue here.
It's like arguing about whether a guy should still be going out on dates (with other women) after getting married. :blink: Hellloooooo? Anyone home? Who cares if his old flings get mad (that he's married). They're aren't the ones raising his children, doing the laundry, cooking meals and such...follow me?

Furthermore, whenever anyone on the Blender team gets hired somewhere, they find someone else to fill their shoes. They (Blender Foundation) know that it's a good launching pad toward paying work. I don't see how they would view that in a bad way.

#11 haikalle

haikalle

    Journeymen

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,360 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Finland

Posted 18 March 2011 - 08:10 PM

There is nothing bad that coders comes and goes. It is natural of blender develop. And I myself think this is good idea.

But in this case. Raul has develop unlimited clay for blender almost one year. There is many blender users who has donated money into that project. Think
yourself into position that you have donated money into project for one year. Then the coder of the project would say that "I got a job, I don't finish the project,
Thanks for your money, bye bye" Would you be happy? I think how it's done right now is only good way to go.

#12 AbnRanger

AbnRanger

    Master

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,254 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 March 2011 - 08:14 PM

There is nothing bad that coders comes and goes. It is natural of blender develop. And I myself think this is good idea.

But in this case. Raul has develop unlimited clay for blender almost one year. There is many blender users who has donated money into that project. Think
yourself into position that you have donated money into project for one year. Then the coder of the project would say that "I got a job, I don't finish the project,
Thanks for your money, bye bye" Would you be happy? I think how it's done right now is only good way to go.

They (Blender Foundation) would do what other developers (and companies of all vocations) do...find a replacement. Again, anytime someone accepts another job...loyalties change hands, especially when the new job is in the very same market. It doesn't matter if a guy works on a project for 10yrs...when you go to another job, you work WITH THEM...Not AGAINST THEM.

Whether Raul is willing to acknowledge it or not...his continued work with Blender not only fragments his time and effort further, but it effectively helps take food off of his and Andrew's table, as it were.

Every time a prospective 3D Coat customer decides they don't really need to spend the money when they have similar functionality in Blender for free...that's $350 that disappears from Andrew's family budget...for clothes for the kids, or groceries...especially in a tough economy.

#13 haikalle

haikalle

    Journeymen

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,360 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Finland

Posted 18 March 2011 - 08:26 PM

I understand your point. But if Raul has completed 95% of code. It would make sense if he can finish it up.

And in the end it's up to Andrew. And he has said that he allows Raul to work in his blender projects. And I think he knows
the risks but also knows the possibilities.

Sorry michalis, Very cool video :)

#14 michalis

michalis

    Expert

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,479 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:athens, now

Posted 18 March 2011 - 08:54 PM

@haikalle, abnranger, parel

Hey, what these have to do with normal and bump support of new blender???
OK you spoiled my thread, ha ha , never mind.
Let me spoil it too.
You're talking about UC of raul etc etc.
You probably know that I don't like this much, better not to have it in blender.
You know my ideas about digital sculpting after topology and never before.
Here comes new blender, with the excellent skin modifier (bsphere) and the most important!
You can edit geometry, extrude, cut faces add etc etc when in sculpting mode-room. When multi resolution is on! Do you know what this means?
Means that you can topo (real topology, loops etc) the same time you sculpt.
Why do you want UC or voxels? (voxels are good for terrain not for figures)
Why to try retopo after?
I wont mention hard surface modeling because its even more ridiculous.

Here a 1/2 hour test-fun
Started with b-spheres, sculpting and adding more geometry at ~200k multi res. Exported to zbrush (reconstructed subs) fast painting. Here a ~5k base mesh, watch how friendly topology still is.
And even better, there exist perfect loops meaning fast UVs and animation friendly mesh.

AbnRanger, I'm wondering about the future of 3dcoat, zbrush or MB now. I really do. We'll always searching for new apps, we'll still spending our money here and there, its us. The more apps the better for me.
What all these companies will do is another story and not my concern. :drinks:
Haikalle, better have a closer look on new bumps and normal map support, I'm talking about the blender applnk. These new features affect normal maps values too.
Blender works fine with maya compatible nor maps now. Positive values ~1-2

Posted Image
MACOSX,
3DC bug reports here:
http://www.3d-coat.com/mantis

#15 BeatKitano

BeatKitano

    Expert

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,519 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 March 2011 - 09:25 PM

Well, it's not like pilgway wasn't aware he was developping the technology first on blender to be transposed to 3dcoat... With all due respect AbnRanger, you are funny to read sometime, like you have to be the guard dog of pilgway :mellow:

I feel like you have to think with patent and copyright all the time, that's sad when all participants have agreement over technology and every side wins...

[EDIT] @michalis, you mean you can have a sculpt, edit topology and still keep your sculpt under the changes ? That something I would have loved on silo, but it always erased the sculpt where topo was changed.

#16 AbnRanger

AbnRanger

    Master

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,254 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 March 2011 - 10:05 PM

Well, it's not like pilgway wasn't aware he was developping the technology first on blender to be transposed to 3dcoat... With all due respect AbnRanger, you are funny to read sometime, like you have to be the guard dog of pilgway :mellow:

I feel like you have to think with patent and copyright all the time, that's sad when all participants have agreement over technology and every side wins...

[EDIT] @michalis, you mean you can have a sculpt, edit topology and still keep your sculpt under the changes ? That something I would have loved on silo, but it always erased the sculpt where topo was changed.

Everyone has a certain degree of loyalty towards applications they like and the developers they happen to become acquainted with. What's more is I see the conflict of interest as affecting the 3DC userbase in some measure, if development is split between 3DC and Blender. Helping your competition undercut your sales is not a WIN/WIN situation. At any rate, I have my opinions...you have yours. We'll leave it at that.

#17 kay_Eva

kay_Eva

    Apprentice

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 629 posts

Posted 18 March 2011 - 10:06 PM

Well~ I have blender and I still use a commercial game engine as well as 3dCoat. The reason is, that with commercial apps, you get roadmap and direct feature requests. With blender, you get simply what developers feel like contributing. I like 3dCoat and blender.
"Uploading 08O. But problem - no electricity now. Notebook shows 35 min to the end of power, upload - 30. Who will be the first? :)"

#18 michalis

michalis

    Expert

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,479 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:athens, now

Posted 18 March 2011 - 10:06 PM

@beatkitano
and all other participated here, my answer was probably the most provocative.
Please stop fighting about Raul and UC. I was hopping we could just discuss about new blender bump support. About how 3dc could export bump maps (displacements) from PPP mode. (baked from voxels I mean)
This UC feature of 3dc isn't something fantastic, this comes from the needs of pilgway to make 3dc capable to run on slower machines or OSs (lol). Its not voxels, no sir its not. And most importantly you can have it from pixologic for free. Its called sculpris and lot of blender users work with this and the new retopo capabilities. Here it is for free. No need to buy 3dc.
I think all these may be the thoughts of a newbie but never of a more advanced digital artist.
I need 3dc, zb, blender, sketchup, modo, if I had more money all the other apps. As Kay_Eva says, I'm a jumper. :drinks:

[EDIT] @michalis, you mean you can have a sculpt, edit topology and still keep your sculpt under the changes ? That something I would have loved on silo, but it always erased the sculpt where topo was changed.


Exactly so, what silo now? We're talking about real sculpting with multi res on. A paradise of figure modeling. Jumping from edit faces mode to sculpting in real time.
MACOSX,
3DC bug reports here:
http://www.3d-coat.com/mantis

#19 BeatKitano

BeatKitano

    Expert

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,519 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 March 2011 - 08:34 AM

Don't worry Michalis, no fight for me here, not even animosity, I agree to disagree when some valid points are in the mix, but on this particular issue I'm pretty optimistic that's all. I don't portray Raul like the type of guy "screwing" (sorry for the word my english vocabulary is limited and I don't know the proper word) his employer when he has been generously helping blender users for free for years.

About silo: it's exactly what silo does, it works on multi res, and you can edit your topology (like any modeler) and sculpt. Now what seems to be better with blender is that the two sides of the operation are supported anytime. Sweet.

I would love to use all those new tech (unlimited clay/bsphere/glsl bump/topoedit-sculpt), the only issue I have, it's the blender philosophy about shortcut and all, last time I checked with the function preset only the max one looked alright, problem is I come from a maya background and REALLY can't adapt XD

And yeah I know about the shortcut editor, but it's a mess I can't get my shortcut in the 13 pages long list (and you can have the same shortcut applied to multiple commands which creates overrides and make my hair fall)

#20 haikalle

haikalle

    Journeymen

  • Contributor
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,360 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Finland

Posted 19 March 2011 - 09:13 AM

No fighting. Because I'm not native english speaker my words sounds harsh sometimes but I only mean good. I like
AbnRanger. I think he is very talented artist. Sometimes it nice to have a good discussion with him :)




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users