36 replies to this topic

[DRAWINGTANK]

I came across this

http://www.dgp.toron...ilovesketch.htm

Its called " I Love Sketch "

basically you sketch and the app converts the stokes into curves and before you know it you have created a sketch that is actually a 3D model

or Nurb curves that can be turned into a model

What if we could " sketch " inside 3DC like you would on paper ala "I love Sketch " and when you are done you can press " Make Voxels "

button and baaam.... you just turned a sketch into a voxel model !

this would give anyone who loves to sketch a new way to create models essentially " bridging " the gap between artists and modelers

I hope you guys see the potential as I do

thanks for taking the time

[Jokermax]

i tried it at siggraph, very cool little app. It is not even in beta though

[DRAWINGTANK]

i tried it at siggraph, very cool little app. It is not even in beta though

Very Cool.... I wish they release an open beta

the way Andrew is from what I have seen so far He could implement this with his own flavor in

3DC before they actually have a beta out

[cakeller]

Very Cool.... I wish they release an open beta

the way Andrew is from what I have seen so far He could implement this with his own flavor in

3DC before they actually have a beta out

in a way, half the function is already there with the sphere brush, it is just a matter of making each stroke have a temporary history... so you sketch it in one projection and it works like normal, then you rotate even a little bit, and that second stroke is instersected with the first projection. pretty simple. or rather, it works like curves, but instead of a manual curve entry, it's a stroke entry... and each stroke of your pen in a new rotation intersects with the previous stroke... and to make it a little more robust, maybe there's a slider you can access after each stroke that is a % undo... so that you can refine quite easily...

This could be extremely easy to implement since so much of it is already there... as I said, with the curve tool! it's just a matter of a new interface for the curves.

of course, I think zSpheres 2 is kinda doing this, or is it zSketch??? I don't know, I don't have zBrush. zBrush schmeeBrush - I want it in 3DC

[Andrew Shpagin]

Possibly you will be able to get something like this if I will allow to draw with curves directly on reference images that are used in Sketch tool.

[cakeller]

Possibly you will be able to get something like this if I will allow to draw with curves directly on reference images that are used in Sketch tool.

the amazing part of the shared idea here is that it is freeform. 2 projections do not need to be ortho, but only from 2 different views...

it is much more intuitive to sketch in a 3D view and follow a line of flow in a model, than to have to be limited to the projections.

also, as I mentioned... zBrush is doing something like this with zSpheres2... sketching in 3D space is WAY better than sketching on a 2D orthogonal plane.

just make it so that a new curve tool, called curve 2.

the points are a smooth version of a pen stroke, using the same method you use to create a sphere-tool stroke, with obviously smoothed out points. then while that curve is active, allow a stroke to edit that curve in the current view... aligning only it's VIEW BASED X/Y with the stroke, and leaving it's VIEW BASED Depth alone.

that way as you rotate, you can adjust the curve from the intuitive viewer's point of view.



additionally, since the wacom allows pressure sensitivity, you could totally have the size of each point be based on the original stroke (probably not the adjustment strokes)

[cakeller]

I do think that drawing on the reference planes (as in you can draw the images within 3DC, and in place... that is a good feature, but not even close to the same as what this multi-sketch would be.

The following video doesn't even show how it would be even cooler when used while there is other reference model already in place.

here's a video to explain how working with a sketched curve in 3D is better than ortho projections.

Video to Explain


of course, one additional item that I think needs fixing is the shape of the drawn curves. right now they are wonky, because the first and last point aim toward the second. this creates really ugly curves. fine for ugly creature drawings etc, but not for elegant designs and sculpting.

[Klaus Nordby]

This is a very, very cool and potentially hugely useful sketching approach! And I certainly vote for getting something like that into 3DC -- where much of the infrastrucure clearly is in place already. Go, Andrew, go -- stop working on all this boring UV stuff, give us more and better voxel sketching-modelling tools!

[DRAWINGTANK]

This is a very, very cool and potentially hugely useful sketching approach! And I certainly vote for getting something like that into 3DC -- where much of the infrastrucure clearly is in place already. Go, Andrew, go -- stop working on all this boring UV stuff, give us more and better voxel sketching-modelling tools!

Agree 100 % !

Andrew if you do this right ( I agree with cakeller No projection limitations please ) and make so we can Sketch in any direction with total freedom of movement

while utilizing Wacom tablets pressure sensitivity to give a natural feel for how thick or thin the line should be

For fun you can even include a paper texture as a background to give us the " authentic look & feel

+ if we could Save the Sketch like we can save a spline in " Draw by Closed Splines " and when you are ready to turn the " Line Sketch " into Voxels just click " Apply " button

this will turn 3DC without a doubt the King of the hill for it will attract so many people who are artists but at the same time are turned off

by the technical side of building models in 3D..

Like Klaus said, " where much of the infrastrucure clearly is in place already " + your creativity & speed it would be a shame not to do this !


I found another software that has the same kind of idea it's called "Rhonda", a 3D drawing tool developed by Amit Pitaru circa 2003.

you can actually sign up for Beta Test its available for both Mac / PC

http://rhondaforever.com/

from what I can tell by playing with it for a a few minutes.. its really cool and could give you some new ideas on how to approach this


come on ... let's do it

[cakeller]

While I would love to be able to do sketching in 3D that's cool, I am way more interested in directly manipulating 3D forms. think sculpting vs sketching. I want FAST form build up.

one of the things that is lacking is an elegant input for forms... which is what I got so excited about here, is the idea that you could lay down a curve, simliar to the way you can with the sphere brush, but then being able to refine that stroke from multiple angles by merely rotating the model and re-stroking and then finalizing the stroke into the voxels once it's aesthetically how you want it.

what I meant by the functionality already being there is that there are several tools that have pieces of this puzzle... curves has the - lay it down before you apply it - functionality. the muscle tool, has the fluid stroke, the sphere tool has the pen-pressure thick-to-thin ability... and the e-pallete's spline brush has the ability to edit cleaner curves than the curve tool (meaning controlling tangents at the ends... as a reminder... the curves tool NEEDS to provide access to the control vertices, or allow independent rotation of the end tangents)

putting all that together ... would essentially give 3DC all the functionality that zSpheres II touts... but in a voxel environment, instead of using a metaball idea. if you haven't watched the video of the zSpheres II / zSketching, it'd be a really good idea. I think you could do this where it just gives a perfect interface for creating forms and since it's only adding a few tweaks to the curve tool it shouldn't be too hard.

1) thickness controlled by a stroke, using wacom pressure
2) being able to re-stroke a curve that's active, allowing you to refine it from multiple ARBiTRARY projections

that's IT! really... those two things would do it...

well... and 3) allowing end tangent control to the curve tool.

- of course, I'm not saying I wouldn't enjoy a 3D sketching tool as well, but --- 3DC for me, is about virtual sculpting, and building arbitrary, and forms without constraints, and fast. voxels allow this type of sculpting and form development - adding the tweaks I just described above would seriously exponentially increase 3DC's proficiency at what it is already masterful at - FAST UNCONSTAINED FORM DEVELOPMENT - and it would improve the controllability of that form development, tremendously. Best of all - it's not a NEW interface, it's not a NEW tool - it's the addition of a refined version of an existing tool (with features from a few other tools)

not trying to tell you it's trivial - I'm saying it would be HUGELY beneficial!

Thanks for considering this.

[cakeller]

Every time I come back to the forums and read over all the posts, I keep coming back to this one... I get absolutely chills thinking about how much this would free our creative outlet... mind blowing it would be, yeessss, mind blowing.

[cakeller]

I posted this on another thread, because it was discussing just this idea... I thought I'd re-post it here.
Here is the link to the other post Voxels Stick to...

lay down the first stoke of the curve, (looks just like a curve on the curve tool, that's fine, but with the size of the points controlled by the pressure)
then each subsequent stroke would be given a weighting...

so that each stroke is averaged, or has a weighted averaging with the final stroke.

you could make it so that the final shape was an average of all the strokes,
or you could make the current stroke equal weighted to all the previous strokes..

1) (stroke 1 + strok 2... stroke n) / n
2) (((stroke 1 + stroke 2... stroke n-1) / n-1 ) + stroke n ) / 2

weighted versions

3) this method allows user to change the weighting for each stroke, to control how much or little each additional stroke will affect the shape of the current curve

Stroke 1:
result = Stroke 1
Stroke 2:
result = ((result * (1-weight 2)) + (stroke 2 * weight 2) / 2
Stroke 3:
result = ((result * (1-weight 3)) + (stroke 3 * weight 3) / 2
Stroke ...n:
result = ((result * (1-weight n)) + (strokee n * weight n) / 2


4) this method would allow user to only control how the previous entire set of strokes compare to the latest stroke

Stroke 1:
result = Stroke 1
Stroke n:
result = (((Stroke 1 + Stroke 2... Stroke n-1) * (1-weight) + (stroke n * weight n)) / 2

the difference is that in method 4, 3DC would have to track all strokes, but in method 3 it could save only the last result, and use the current stroke.



in addition to having the "shape" of the spline be weighted, it would be critical to separate the blending of the spline shape and the pressure weights... thereby allowing the user to separately dial in the thickness properties, and the shape of the curve, or do both at the same time.

in addition, I would highly suggest that the number of points NOT change after the first stroke.... sure let the user add points, since this would be a "CURVE" just like in the current curve tool... but... those points maybe be placed strategically along the length, and if the number of points changes, it could become very frustrating.

On the other hand, I suppose you may want to be able to relax the spline, and re-distribute the points by a smoothing operation (hold down the shift key perhaps?)

I'm going to re-post this exact post on another thread, because it's the same request/topic.

[DRAWINGTANK]

Hey guys

after watching Zbrush 3.5 R3 in action ... makes this thread even more urgent...

ZBrush's Z Sphere 2 is in my opinion the biggest advantage over 3dc, by that I mean the ability to lay down a stroke and have the total

freedom to shape as you like by rotating, scaling, deleting, moving

The control, that you have with Z Sphere 2 is amazing, with brush Depth as I have mentioned.. I guess this is the same as I LOve Sketch


I hope Andrew will make this his N1 priority, so we can have total freedom very soon

thank you for taking the time

[Taros]

Hey guys

after watching Zbrush 3.5 R3 in action ... makes this thread even more urgent...

ZBrush's Z Sphere 2 is in my opinion the biggest advantage over 3dc, by that I mean the ability to lay down a stroke and have the total

freedom to shape as you like by rotating, scaling, deleting, moving

The control, that you have with Z Sphere 2 is amazing, with brush Depth as I have mentioned.. I guess this is the same as I LOve Sketch


I hope Andrew will make this his N1 priority, so we can have total freedom very soon

thank you for taking the time

Yes the new zSpheres are really strong. I will take a indepth look into zBrush soon. A friend of mine gives tutorials in zBrush, and I am very curious. Pixologic released a new update some days ago, and there are some more important features that came new. Now you are able to make clean boolean operations in zBrush. This makes zBrush much stronger and more independent.

[Calabi]

Zspheres arent that great compared to voxels. Its a whole extra disconnected step in creating a model. Putting down the strokes can be awkward inconsistant, its hard to understand how these little bubbles work, and to get them to flow how you want them to. And thats only

It wouldnt be to hard (probably) to just adapt the spheres tool to work something like that. Just have instead of its direction being always in the view space, have its direction that the brush is pointing or normal of the surface.

[cakeller]

Zspheres arent that great compared to voxels. Its a whole extra disconnected step in creating a model. Putting down the strokes can be awkward inconsistant, its hard to understand how these little bubbles work, and to get them to flow how you want them to. And thats only

It wouldnt be to hard (probably) to just adapt the spheres tool to work something like that. Just have instead of its direction being always in the view space, have its direction that the brush is pointing or normal of the surface.

They are NOT talking about zSpheres which are REALLY LAME,
they are talking zSpheres 2 which are incredible, intuitive and AMAZINGLY easy to adjust and readjust... this is not your same old zSpheres, this is zSpheres on steroids, mixed with spinach, mixed with sunshine!

that said, I still hate the interface and the rest of the disjoint implementation of zBrush...


and all the benefits zPheres 2.0 without all the drawbacks of zBrush could easily be had with Curves 2.0 in 3DC... I've proposed a number of things that could really easily be done with the curves tool to provide these benefits with, what I think is, not an extreme amount of work. I REALLY think this one sculpting feature would be a GIANT addition to the tool set... almost like voxels are to the whole tool...

what I mean is...

having this type of tool would be as important as having voxels - you could create new objects SO easily from nothing...



a 3D model based on curves that have thickness and then having that convert to voxels for further refinement... FANTASMAGORICAL!


Sure there are some aspects of the spheres brush, but the toothpaste, snakes, and curves tools all have stuff that could be utilized too... the CLOSEST matching tool is the CURVES tool, just adding the ability to STROKE the curves out with the tablet, and then re-shape them from multipl angles, would give you EVERYTHING you need... of course with a few enhancements to the curve tool's editing functionality, and you've got a killer tool for the tool-belt!

[Calabi]

They are NOT talking about zSpheres which are REALLY LAME,
they are talking zSpheres 2 which are incredible, intuitive and AMAZINGLY easy to adjust and readjust... this is not your same old zSpheres, this is zSpheres on steroids, mixed with spinach, mixed with sunshine!

that said, I still hate the interface and the rest of the disjoint implementation of zBrush...


and all the benefits zPheres 2.0 without all the drawbacks of zBrush could easily be had with Curves 2.0 in 3DC... I've proposed a number of things that could really easily be done with the curves tool to provide these benefits with, what I think is, not an extreme amount of work. I REALLY think this one sculpting feature would be a GIANT addition to the tool set... almost like voxels are to the whole tool...

what I mean is...

having this type of tool would be as important as having voxels - you could create new objects SO easily from nothing...



a 3D model based on curves that have thickness and then having that convert to voxels for further refinement... FANTASMAGORICAL!


Sure there are some aspects of the spheres brush, but the toothpaste, snakes, and curves tools all have stuff that could be utilized too... the CLOSEST matching tool is the CURVES tool, just adding the ability to STROKE the curves out with the tablet, and then re-shape them from multipl angles, would give you EVERYTHING you need... of course with a few enhancements to the curve tool's editing functionality, and you've got a killer tool for the tool-belt!

I was talking about Zsphere2. Getting them to work on the ends of skeletons and building up the masses in a less uniform way is difficult at least for me anyway, and it is just a nowhere near finished surface.

I agree about the ability to draw the geometry straight out would be perfect with voxels, it should be one of its defining features. I just dont think it needs to be done with the curves. It can be done a lot simpler with the tools already. You just use the geometry already created as references and draw the new geometry off of that.

[cakeller]

I was talking about Zsphere2. Getting them to work on the ends of skeletons and building up the masses in a less uniform way is difficult at least for me anyway, and it is just a nowhere near finished surface.

I agree about the ability to draw the geometry straight out would be perfect with voxels, it should be one of its defining features. I just dont think it needs to be done with the curves. It can be done a lot simpler with the tools already. You just use the geometry already created as references and draw the new geometry off of that.

ok... I can see that.

the thing is, what I LIKE about the use of curves, and zSpheres2 is the history behavior...

Basically voxels are like working on an image, but curves are like working in illustrator... Yes, there are things that you can do in photoshop (or whatever) that are way cooler than illustrator, but once you convert to image, the resolution is done. Waht is neat about curves and zSpheres is the non-dependence on resolution.

THAT is why I want to be able to control curves in a sketch-like way.... that is why I love the idea of zSpheres2...

being able to go back and refine strokes is a HUGE benefit..


really, the concept is simple... allow the curves to be re-shaped by drawing strokes with pressure. and having some method of blending several strokes together, so you can re-work the same "curve"

your dislike of curves is understandable in their current version - they need better tangency control to make them useful...

but what I think you are missing is... imagine if the curves had the sensitivity of form that the sphere brush has, but the post-editing that the curves tool has, plus a bit of refinement so the curves could be re-shaped.

all of that would make the "curves2" tool, the best thing EVER!

of course, that's not saying your idea isn't valid, it's just that your idea doesn't fulfill the needs that "CURVES2" would...

[Calabi]

I dont know, I'm just having trouble understanding it, it sounds complicated. Having to do repeated strokes exactly over a first stroke, and being reliant on a tablet. And how do you set which area is reshaped. How is it any better than just adjusting things using right click or the gizmo?

[cakeller]

I dont know, I'm just having trouble understanding it, it sounds complicated. Having to do repeated strokes exactly over a first stroke, and being reliant on a tablet. And how do you set which area is reshaped. How is it any better than just adjusting things using right click or the gizmo?

why do you need to stroke exactly over the top of a previous stroke? the idea is to BLEND multiple strokes to be able to re-work strokes and reshape them. How is it better than adjusting individual points? - uh, because it's an artists intuitive stroke! that's why...

the idea here is to have a "sensitivity" similar to the way an artist thinks / draws / sculpts.

NEVER EVER, except in rare savant type cases does an artist lay down their strokes perfectly on the first go. think blue-line drawing as comic book artist do before inking. or sketching of any kind....

the tablet is integral to using a program like this, if you don't have a tablet ! GET ONE ! it isn't required, but if you're serious about doing any kind of meaningful work - I would highly recomend it.

it would be AWEFUL if it were not intuitive, but it's quite simple....

mode = shape, then additional strokes on a curve "re-shape" the curve, blending the previous strokes with the current stroke. hold control to select a different curve segment to re-shape.

mode = create, lay down curve strokes like snakes tool / sphere brush


if you're so in love with the sphere brush, you should really check out the snakes tool - it creates almost the same type of stroke, except it's a smoooooooth curve, where the pressure is thick to thin etc in a smooth way, not like the sphere's chunkiness.


anyway... I've already suggested the pseudo-math for this, and it seems really really really easy to me, I don't know why it would be confusing, but then that depends on how much other 3DC stuff is new to you...

This is a concept we've been discussing here for several months - A lot of thought and effort has gone into this, and it's pretty well thought out.

Feel free to add new thoughts, but hopefully you try and thoroughly understand what has already been discussed before dismissing it.


of all the requests out there, this is my #1 request - I WANT CURVES II... a 3D sketching tool with the ability to re-shape the strokes. there's no other way to do it unless you can stroke, rotated the view, stroke, etc... unless you manually edit (which is NOT artistically fluid)