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A Cool New Way For Creating Voxels !


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#21 Calabi

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 04:26 PM

I'm not trying to purposefully dis your idea, I just think that every idea should be questioned and until it is something, then it is rubbish(including my own). Ideas are easy, implementing is hard.

I do have a tablet, but even with that it can be hard to get the exact pressure I want(but then it does only have 512 levels). But I dont think any software should be dependant on it. But then it need not be you just set the pressure the same way you do with the size of the brushes.

#22 cakeller

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 10:40 PM

I'm not trying to purposefully dis your idea, I just think that every idea should be questioned and until it is something, then it is rubbish(including my own). Ideas are easy, implementing is hard.

I do have a tablet, but even with that it can be hard to get the exact pressure I want(but then it does only have 512 levels). But I dont think any software should be dependant on it. But then it need not be you just set the pressure the same way you do with the size of the brushes.


Fair enough, I guess.

Regarding your tablet complaint, THAT IS EXACTLY WHY the multi-stroke concept would work AWESOME and intuitively, and I thought I had explained why - but if not, here goes again.

A signle stroke is difficult to get just right. there is a visual and physical disconnect between the tablet and the screen, which makes getting a precise stroke, challenging.
However, with practice a stroke can become better, but rarely perfect.

Enter the multi-stroke concept.
Forget for a moment, about 3DC and think only in terms of a pencil stroke on paper. Have you ever watched an artist sketch, where they lay down light sketchy lines until they find the line they really want, and then they begin to push harder where they know the line is good... they might even rotate the paper to get a better physical angle to move the pencil. In the end, the line will have character and motion and emphasis where the artist determined it.

Imagine suggesting to that artist, ok - make your line on the paper, then we'll make it rubbery, and you can have little points to move it around - ugh, AWEFUL! not intuitive, not fluid, and very inorganic, ESPECIALLY for thick and thin lines etc....

on the other hand a combination of the two methods would be great... do the direct sketching/resketching and then have the ability to go in and edit the curve based on the spin, and such.


so the idea here, is taking that into 3 D... but same basic idea... the direct manipulation of the curve by the artists hand, not through widgets and gizmos, but the extension of their mind - meaning their hand.


so --- back to the multi-stroke

If you can make multiple strokes averaging them, it will be MUCH smoother, but allow you to hone in on your desired shape.

your complaint about tablet is exactly the benefit you would see with a multi-stroke shaping of a curve... (see the math above for how the strokes could be combine)

in addition, it's completely reasonable to think that you could limit further strokes to affect only X, Y, Z, or Screen Space, or PRESSURE

The point is, the implementation I envision would be incredibly user/artist friendly

to stroke a curve at any time - pick the curve-entity, not a whole curve tree, but one branch (or the trunk)... this is already the way curves works anyway.

stroke along the curve (or not along it, so you can reshape it), with varying pressure, and from multiple views each time the shape is being averaged with the current stroke and previous strokes....

the curves are then averaged based on a weighting... you could set the weight so that each additional stroke only contributes 20% compared to the original which contributes 80%... therefore you'd have to stroke the same stroke 4-5 times to get the original curve to move half way between the two curves. or if you set the weighting to 50%, it'd take about 5-6 strokes to get almost to the new stroke.

keep in mind, the cool part of the idea is that if the curve is only allowed to move in screen space (depth from screen is not changed) then you can create complex curves by sketching. there really isn't a 3D interface that can do that with a single stroke - since the stroke itself is 2D. so the only real way to get 3D is either manipulate manually (not intuitive, or fluid) OR intersect 2 strokes... but better, is to be able to intersect multipl strokes and be able to continue to reshape it.
"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe." - Carl Sagan.

WinXP x64 sp2
My HDD Crashed - Hardware FAIL! - at least my brain did not Cr45H @#$%%^^@$....123.45.5.2....beep--- boing.
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P.S. Thanks to Andrew, and all who help make 3D-C awesome!

My Synthetic Nature shader library in the making:

#23 wailingmonkey

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Posted 06 December 2009 - 11:58 PM

...
wall of text
...

;)


Or Andrew could look at how Zbrush implements it's LazyMouse stroke and fix the current 'SoftStroke'
so we have greater control over how 'mechanical' we want it. Currently, it's still way too 'jittery'
to be of real use, but it seems the tech is already in place...just needs more attention and user control.
-portfolio-


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#24 cakeller

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 12:12 AM

;)


Or Andrew could look at how Zbrush implements it's LazyMouse stroke and fix the current 'SoftStroke'
so we have greater control over how 'mechanical' we want it. Currently, it's still way too 'jittery'
to be of real use, but it seems the tech is already in place...just needs more attention and user control.


wall of text :) hah :) funny...

but this is nothing like soft stroke - soft stroke is another good feature, but doesn't in any way fulfill this feature request. HISTORICAL STROKES that are EDITABLE!... do I need to draw a picture here guys?
"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe." - Carl Sagan.

WinXP x64 sp2
My HDD Crashed - Hardware FAIL! - at least my brain did not Cr45H @#$%%^^@$....123.45.5.2....beep--- boing.
4GB Ra, nVidia QuadroFX 3450 w/256MB

P.S. Thanks to Andrew, and all who help make 3D-C awesome!

My Synthetic Nature shader library in the making:

#25 wailingmonkey

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 12:26 AM

wall of text :) hah :) funny...

but this is nothing like soft stroke - soft stroke is another good feature, but doesn't in any way fulfill this feature request. HISTORICAL STROKES that are EDITABLE!... do I need to draw a picture here guys?



no picture necessary...I get what you're after and think it'd be pretty handy. I'm just saying that greater control
over the original stroke would alleviate the need to re-edit an already placed stroke. (my own opinion, obviously)

But hey, maybe you should draw up some graphics to further flesh out your idea. Might help distill it further and show
some potential areas of avoidance. Also, how would the actual stroke 'spline' be manipulated and how would said manipulation
affect areas further up and down the spline? Percentage influence? B-spline style? Tangent handles?
-portfolio-


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#26 cakeller

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 04:12 AM

no picture necessary...I get what you're after and think it'd be pretty handy. I'm just saying that greater control
over the original stroke would alleviate the need to re-edit an already placed stroke. (my own opinion, obviously)

But hey, maybe you should draw up some graphics to further flesh out your idea. Might help distill it further and show
some potential areas of avoidance. Also, how would the actual stroke 'spline' be manipulated and how would said manipulation
affect areas further up and down the spline? Percentage influence? B-spline style? Tangent handles?


What's confusing about blending 2 curves?

Case 1 - pure blend (think of a surface ruled between the two curves... and the new curve is some % from one curve to the other... and all the attributes could also be blended at the same weighting, or even individual weightings.

Case 2 - modifying a sub-segment of the original curve... the new stroke is shorter than the original curve and close to a portion of the original, there would need to be a blend beyond the ends (simple) or within segment... to create a smooth transition (just leave it up to the artist to blend - like well it'd be your responsiblity to align the beginning and ending or feather it out.

Case 3 - limited movemement allowing the blend of the original and new stroke to occur in only some of the axes etc ... meaning settings to make the averaging work only along the X axis or only X and Y, or such that the only movement is in screen space, so the projection of the new curve from the viewpoint, and then the original is blended such that the entire curve is still parametrcially at the same depth, but from the camera, it is blended with the new stroke.

---- but all of this SOUNDS complicated... just like trying to explain to someone how a car works, how to shift, and clutch, and gas etc... but in practice it's so easy ----

all of thise could be done simply by adding a few small changes to the curves tool -

I would appreciate specific thoughtful questions about how this would work - but would appreciate it if folks would refrain from saying "I think this isn't necessary" since that's literally pointing out that they don't get what I am talking about. Call it arrogance, ok, but I KNOW this would rock - an if you have a specific question, or ask for clarification - I'm happy to oblige, but I'm not going to try and re-explain, until I actually have some time to illustrate it...

besides, this has been around for a long time - and I haven't heard Andrew mention being interested in it, so - - - maybe it's just a lost cause - - - and that makes me sad.
"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe." - Carl Sagan.

WinXP x64 sp2
My HDD Crashed - Hardware FAIL! - at least my brain did not Cr45H @#$%%^^@$....123.45.5.2....beep--- boing.
4GB Ra, nVidia QuadroFX 3450 w/256MB

P.S. Thanks to Andrew, and all who help make 3D-C awesome!

My Synthetic Nature shader library in the making:

#27 spacepainter

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 02:36 PM

Don't worry
It is a great idea to be able to make complex structures this way, i.e. more intuitive control over curves.
Dont make the mistake to get impatience in your enthousiasm.
Andrew reads everything I'm sure but is commited to his physical body which makes magic less possible.
So eventually your fine ideas will trickle into 3d coat for sure, just give it some time.
Artis Natura Magistra

#28 cakeller

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 09:29 PM

Don't worry
It is a great idea to be able to make complex structures this way, i.e. more intuitive control over curves.
Dont make the mistake to get impatience in your enthousiasm.
Andrew reads everything I'm sure but is commited to his physical body which makes magic less possible.
So eventually your fine ideas will trickle into 3d coat for sure, just give it some time.


That's true... physical limitations yup yup... and yet somehow he still does things that others would not given the same physical limitations - almost seems like magic already?!

In truth, although I spent time re-explaining something that I thought was already explained enough to implement, it did cause me to have a couple of thoughts about special cases, and what happens if (...) ?

things like...

what if you want to edit just a portion of the curve segment, how do you limit the modification to a smaller region?

knowledge assumptions: using NURBS curves - and assuming regular parameterization from 0 -> 1 along a single segment, or a signle change, excluding branches.

1) you could have a limiter along the curve that has a start and a stop for the region of effect, and a soft start and soft stop, to allow fo clean blending. these could be manually placed along the active curve parametrically, or using a gizmo of some kind. However, as an only method of interacting, this would be clunky and slow. this would be better suited for specific and precise reshaping of an area.
2) using the preceeding concept of a start, soft start, soft stop, and stop, as contribution parameters, with equivalent values of 0, 1, 1, and 0... and not related to the overall contribution weight, but like layer alpha in PS, it is not related to the layer's overall opacity. so with that, the start and stop are determined by one of the following -

comparing the screen space old stroke to the start and stop point of the new stroke, to determine the closest projected point on the old curve, and mapping the new stroke to the curve using closest point for start mapping to start on the new stroke. if start (param 0) on the new stroke is closest to param 0.34 on the original curve, and end (param 1) of the new stroke is closest to param .37 on the original curve, then map the new curve's shape to the area between 0.34, and 0.37. 0 maps to 0.34, 0.5 maps to 0.355, and 1.0 maps to 0.37... there should probably be a percentage of beginning and ending of strokes that is consider the soft region. e.g. if 20%, then at parameter 0 on the new curve, there is no effect, at parameter 0.2 the effect is at maximum, until parameter 0.8, and then fades back to no effect at parameter 1.0


anyway... the point is, although I've spent more time than I would like to have spent on this typing and not sculpting, there was at least SOME good thought that came out..


[EDIT:] turns out I had done a screen capture video somewhat showing what I was thinking WAY BACK... I just never posted it, I think. it's my attempt to show approximately what would happen with the curves tool. all it really shows is imaginary stroke shapes, and then I go in and edit the points to show what I envision happening from each stroke. I guess I didnt' post it because I thought it might be more confusing as to what I was showing than just trying to use words.... but maybe now it could help? hopefully it doesn't fuel the confusion fire.

Mock-up video
"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe." - Carl Sagan.

WinXP x64 sp2
My HDD Crashed - Hardware FAIL! - at least my brain did not Cr45H @#$%%^^@$....123.45.5.2....beep--- boing.
4GB Ra, nVidia QuadroFX 3450 w/256MB

P.S. Thanks to Andrew, and all who help make 3D-C awesome!

My Synthetic Nature shader library in the making:

#29 DRAWINGTANK

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 06:03 PM

Possibly you will be able to get something like this if I will allow to draw with curves directly on reference images that are used in Sketch tool.


Hi Andrew !

Any update on this request ?

thank you as always :clapping:
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#30 robotbob

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 09:14 AM

intriguing thread. i have just brought coat so it might take me a while to fully appreciate the concepts presented here in context with the tools already in the box. one of the things i do wish for thus far however is a tighter connection between my drawings and the beginnings of a sculpt. my work will be 99% character work though.
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#31 Digital777

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 12:54 PM

For the sketch tool i posted about direct editing here after looking at the way Z4 does it -

http://www.3d-coat.c...indpost&p=48041

Nobody has replied in that thread yet though but it's just one of many things in my list i guess. I think though a direct 2d editor which would work in realtime would turn that tool from rarely used to must use because the workflow would be so much simpler then. The main tools are there also for the brush methods it just needs to apply this to 2d and also keep the current import options for when that is needed.

#32 DRAWINGTANK

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 12:37 AM

Possibly you will be able to get something like this if I will allow to draw with curves directly on reference images that are used in Sketch tool.



Hello Andrew

It's been a while since this request, and I just saw that moska posted about OverCoat:

A a technique to generalize the 2D painting metaphor to 3D that allows the artist to treat the full 3D space as a canvas.

OverCoat PDF

It's the same principal as I Love Sketch, creating geometry from doodles.

I hope you can take a look and get inspired and give us some magic !

thank you for your time
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#33 cakeller

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 07:35 AM

Hello Andrew

It's been a while since this request, and I just saw that moska posted about OverCoat:

A a technique to generalize the 2D painting metaphor to 3D that allows the artist to treat the full 3D space as a canvas.

OverCoat PDF

It's the same principal as I Love Sketch, creating geometry from doodles.

I hope you can take a look and get inspired and give us some magic !

thank you for your time


+1 +1 +1 +1

Ohhhhh yeah that would be so awesome!
"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe." - Carl Sagan.

WinXP x64 sp2
My HDD Crashed - Hardware FAIL! - at least my brain did not Cr45H @#$%%^^@$....123.45.5.2....beep--- boing.
4GB Ra, nVidia QuadroFX 3450 w/256MB

P.S. Thanks to Andrew, and all who help make 3D-C awesome!

My Synthetic Nature shader library in the making:

#34 L'Ancien Regime

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 07:30 AM




Catia V6 2012 Natural Drawing

#35 Crush

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 06:11 AM

Why being so hot on this? There are a lot of really cool and much better 3D sketching tools available.
I use those: http://www.shapeshop3d.com http://www.archipelis.com http://www.cgchannel...ck-into-rigging or http://www.curvy3d.com
And there are a few more out there.

#36 puntoit

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 04:42 PM

hi Crush,
thanks for the list. So far I like RigMesh.
You mentioned more out there. Would you (and other forum members) be so nice and list them.
I also would be interested in 3D software for android for doodeling on the road.
Thanks

#37 L'Ancien Regime

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 05:16 PM

....




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