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Leigh's Sketchbook


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#41 3dioot

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Posted 01 July 2009 - 09:01 PM

Just as a tip eventhough its probably not the most pleasant workflow.

You can use the split tool to split a part of your sculpt on a new layer, then increase resolution on that layer only.

Later on as you increase the resolution on your "main" layer you can merge them back together again without any problems.

Very nice works btw. I've been following along silently. :)

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#42 LJB

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Posted 01 July 2009 - 10:23 PM

More Updates Still working at the 2nd increased level.

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- leigh
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#43 LJB

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Posted 01 July 2009 - 10:48 PM

For creases I am finding that even at Low levels a tight crease can be achived by using a hard edged pen and smoothing either side at full strength. Once i finish this fellow I will record a couple of videos, maybe to illustrate what I am finding. Maybe this will help with my technique as others will be able to comment on how im actually achieving.

One thing i do notice and im not sure if others have found it is I would like two seperate smooth pens. Like ZBrush if you smooth as you work it remains consistent with the same effect, but in 3dcoat when you change your brush/pen the smoothing becomes effected but the alterations you make to the pen your working with. Meaning when you stroke to smooth you havr to go back and setup smoothing again if you modified your current pen a great deal.
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#44 LJB

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 12:01 AM

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Bit more work on forearms to correct the look of the rotation to wrist.
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#45 LJB

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 12:10 AM

Sorry E214 and 3Dioot I got myself into a posting frenzy there! There were a couple of things I wanted to correct that did not look right.

3Dioot - Thanks for the tip I can see i may chop off his haed and start again on the face using that approach.

Mind you I want to see just how far I can push the detail in a single Voxel sculpt b4 i try any tricks.
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#46 LJB

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 12:28 AM

Last update tonight -

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#47 Tony Nemo

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 01:47 AM

Last update tonight -

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You've got the touch! :clapping:

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#48 Taros

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 09:26 AM

e214 - Thanks

Jokermax - Thanks also

Here is an update Im pramarily working on the body its from and proportion. I have increased voxel level once already to work tighter on the face but I will work at this level b4 doing so once again. for that reason Hands are yet to be addressed. Feet have been roughed but are also waiting on upping the voxel level.

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Please let me know how you feel he is coming?

- leigh

Very nice. I have the feeling, the breast-muscles are a little bit too strong. The man looks old, and maybe he isn't as fit as a young man. ;)
A tip: be carefully with the voxel-level. Try to keep disciplined and skulpt the whole model step by step. Keep away from detailing parts too early. I made the fault and started too early with details, before I defined other important parts. Later, it was hard to expand the model on a higher voxel level. Hope Andrew will find a way to build "voxel level history" into 3DCoat.

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#49 LJB

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 10:08 AM

Tony Nemo - Thank you

Taros - Thanks i agree about the voxel level for now (I will explain further below what i mean by that) and intend to remain at this level until i finish with alterations to form unfortunately the previous level was a little too raw for muscleture which is why i initially moved up one but at this level i am comfortable and performance is not effected.

Though let me voice my thoughts here on this front, Now in poly sculpting it does make sense to keep resolution low as form bulding is easier, but where topology is no longer a constraining issue, maybe a different appoach is required with this new tech. In Z-Brush for instance many of the brushes change drastically dependant on the resolution of the mesh being worked, for instance there is no real use for sculpting brushes at lowest levels, with predominent workflows using move rake and standard to build form. My way of thinking is resolution of voxels is really only there to aid performance, if Andrew can further optimise performance at higher resolution I no longer see a need to keep things low for roughing out shape. I have longed for a digital medium that closer mimicked natural material so i find voxels interesting for that reason. so I feel the stepping up and down levels may be a thing of the past in the future (Currently though agreed performance is the issue. So maybe in that respect if Voxel leveling (forward and back) proves technically impossible optimisation of higher level performance should be more a priority?

With the increase in voxel levels practially all the brushes behave more predictably so making a higher level in my opinion more comfortable to work in. but I reiterate that performance is the main issue for me, currently.

3Dioot - that splitting workflow works beautifully I wanted to scale down and rotate the head upward and the pose tool proved tricky as the selection of the specific tringles was difficult. simple splitting the head and scaling /rotating ment i could merge it back and knock out the difference very quickly. This is a good alternative to deforming using the pose tool if selection is proving tricky. Thank you

The more I use 3D Coat i can see more and more that quite a different approach is required with voxels, a new way of working with the digital sculpting medium, new workflows to achieve results. Definitely a revolution worth embracing!!!
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#50 LJB

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 01:11 PM

Updated with better proportioning, Size of head had big impact of look and seemingly age of characterI feel now this is muych better proportioned than b4.

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#51 LJB

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 03:39 PM

Bad News I dropped the portable HDD that contained the sculpt whilst on the way to the office, it broke so I will have to start again with this fellow. I beleive I have an earlier revision backup on my home system. Argh, oh well.
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#52 artman

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 04:39 PM

I like your work a lot!Keep posting stuff! :)
You seem also very open minded ,I think you'll get the most of the soft as it grows with this attitude.
On my side ,the problem about performance is mainly for large (and even medium) brush sizes.
With small brushes it is very fast even at very high resolution.
Going up and down in resolution is not essential for me but, being able to use the move brush with large brushes would be satisfying enough for my workflow.
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#53 3DArtist

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 05:57 PM

Too bad you lost some of your work. Very nice model though!

Going up and down in resolution is not essential for me but, being able to use the move brush with large brushes would be satisfying enough for my workflow.

agree. Maybe a low poly mesh that acts as a transform mesh to adjust overall shape?

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#54 3dioot

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 06:11 PM

Though let me voice my thoughts here on this front, Now in poly sculpting it does make sense to keep resolution low as form bulding is easier, but where topology is no longer a constraining issue, maybe a different appoach is required with this new tech. In Z-Brush for instance many of the brushes change drastically dependant on the resolution of the mesh being worked, for instance there is no real use for sculpting brushes at lowest levels, with predominent workflows using move rake and standard to build form. My way of thinking is resolution of voxels is really only there to aid performance, if Andrew can further optimise performance at higher resolution I no longer see a need to keep things low for roughing out shape. I have longed for a digital medium that closer mimicked natural material so i find voxels interesting for that reason. so I feel the stepping up and down levels may be a thing of the past in the future (Currently though agreed performance is the issue. So maybe in that respect if Voxel leveling (forward and back) proves technically impossible optimisation of higher level performance should be more a priority?

With the increase in voxel levels practially all the brushes behave more predictably so making a higher level in my opinion more comfortable to work in. but I reiterate that performance is the main issue for me, currently.


I am so happy to read this. I have been thinking along the exact same lines and thought i was alone.

This is one of the reasons i have been pushing for a fully functional voxel toolset. Regretfully, even after V3's official release, we still have to miss a flatten, a good working pinch, a clay like brush thats actually smooth (surface rapid brush is reasonably good but its a surface brush) and masking. This is also the exact reason i am not a fan of the hybrid surface > voxel brushes. The method has its uses in specific instances. The move brush is an example (which turned out to not be doable in pure voxels) But its a terrible loss of quality on sculpting brushes compared to their pure voxel relatives. In general the feeling of voxel brushes are much more fluent then their mesh based counterparts. The only thing holding them back is the brushes themselves. Poor performance under heavy loads. No brush profile curves. No sampling options. No good brush preset system etc. I totally agree focus should move to optimisation and to the brushes themselves.

Resolution truly is becoming a thing of the past. The entire "for smooth surfaces you have to stay in low subdiv levels" argument stopped applying long ago. With the increase in computing power many people bruteforce their way in high resolutions. People even force their way through topology restraints by subdividing spheres into insanity and sculpting heads from them. A big part of this is the tools. Without tools like clay/claytubes in zb and wax in mb it would be impossible to work in these high resolutions.

Voxels have an inherent advantage on the subject of resolution. They always offer uniform resolution. As ive shown in my voxelprimer this means that its easier to get the shapes you want (and much more intuitive i may add) even at lower resolutions. While performance is important (and multivoxelresolution would help) it will eventually cease to be an issue, but 3dcoat does need awesome tools/brushes. Zbrush's technology may be inherently flawed but the implementation of it is extremely high quality (generally speaking about the brushes themselves). I hope Andrew sees the potential that lies in a pure voxel approach but the fact the voxel toolset isnt even complete makes me wonder sometimes. I hope he views your work and reads your opinion. ;)

If anything should convice Andrew why he should go pure voxels its the second part of the GOZ promotion on zbcentral. It shows features which are, even at this stage, much easier to do in voxels. And the people go absolutely berzerk over it because these options simply werent available before. The market for a mature voxel sculpting package is immense!


Also your welcome and.. sorry to hear you lost your work.

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#55 spacepainter

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 11:38 PM

Genial!

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#56 LJB

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 11:51 PM

I am so happy to read this. I have been thinking along the exact same lines and thought i was alone.

This is one of the reasons i have been pushing for a fully functional voxel toolset. Regretfully, even after V3's official release, we still have to miss a flatten, a good working pinch, a clay like brush thats actually smooth (surface rapid brush is reasonably good but its a surface brush) and masking. This is also the exact reason i am not a fan of the hybrid surface > voxel brushes. The method has its uses in specific instances. The move brush is an example (which turned out to not be doable in pure voxels) But its a terrible loss of quality on sculpting brushes compared to their pure voxel relatives. In general the feeling of voxel brushes are much more fluent then their mesh based counterparts. The only thing holding them back is the brushes themselves. Poor performance under heavy loads. No brush profile curves. No sampling options. No good brush preset system etc. I totally agree focus should move to optimisation and to the brushes themselves.

Resolution truly is becoming a thing of the past. The entire "for smooth surfaces you have to stay in low subdiv levels" argument stopped applying long ago. With the increase in computing power many people bruteforce their way in high resolutions. People even force their way through topology restraints by subdividing spheres into insanity and sculpting heads from them. A big part of this is the tools. Without tools like clay/claytubes in zb and wax in mb it would be impossible to work in these high resolutions.

Voxels have an inherent advantage on the subject of resolution. They always offer uniform resolution. As ive shown in my voxelprimer this means that its easier to get the shapes you want (and much more intuitive i may add) even at lower resolutions. While performance is important (and multivoxelresolution would help) it will eventually cease to be an issue, but 3dcoat does need awesome tools/brushes. Zbrush's technology may be inherently flawed but the implementation of it is extremely high quality (generally speaking about the brushes themselves). I hope Andrew sees the potential that lies in a pure voxel approach but the fact the voxel toolset isnt even complete makes me wonder sometimes. I hope he views your work and reads your opinion. ;)

If anything should convice Andrew why he should go pure voxels its the second part of the GOZ promotion on zbcentral. It shows features which are, even at this stage, much easier to do in voxels. And the people go absolutely berzerk over it because these options simply werent available before. The market for a mature voxel sculpting package is immense!


Also your welcome and.. sorry to hear you lost your work.

3dioot


Im glad to here you and some others may feel the same way on this. To me its purely the essence of voxel sculpting, no topoloy/more natural sculpting, just get things working better performance wise and your winning.

I thought I'd be bold and stick my neck out again on this, as now having taken the body sculpt as far as i did (I have located a backup on page two where i added the head so i will go back and attck again soon bringing the detail and proportioning back) that a further level or so to the max and Id have easily got to a Zbrush detail level. it was just a process of learning. Now imagine if andrew can optimise so i could take to that level sooner you'de have a very nifty fast solution that would stand up against Zbrush and mudbox a lot better.
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#57 LJB

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Posted 03 July 2009 - 06:47 PM

I have made a Video of a simple workfolw for blending between different Volumes at late detailing stage to increase voxel level locally its a cheat using the overlap created ta split stage but it works really nicely. Not sure how it will fair when producing a normal map but the increase in resoultion is superb for detailing smaller areas. Sorry but i'm not sure if this has already been touched on I really cant be bothered to search it out through out the whole forum, so bare with me if its old news.

WMV is HERE! it's an approach until we get better performance or Locallised voxel increase working properly.

- leigh
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#58 LJB

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Posted 04 July 2009 - 02:27 AM

Detailing_Face

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#59 Taros

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Posted 04 July 2009 - 03:02 PM

I have made a Video of a simple workfolw for blending between different Volumes at late detailing stage to increase voxel level locally its a cheat using the overlap created ta split stage but it works really nicely. Not sure how it will fair when producing a normal map but the increase in resoultion is superb for detailing smaller areas. Sorry but i'm not sure if this has already been touched on I really cant be bothered to search it out through out the whole forum, so bare with me if its old news.

WMV is HERE! it's an approach until we get better performance or Locallised voxel increase working properly.

- leigh

I've seen your video and didn't know this workflow before. But I like it very much. It brings more possibilities for users, who don't have much memory, too. I'am currently working on a 32 bit sytem with 3 GBytes of RAM. Your video shows me a way to have much more flexibility. Thanks for that!

The resolution of your last head begins to be interesting for using it as a normal map in renderings.

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German speaking CG Workshops ----> http://www.lernfaktor.de

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#60 LJB

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Posted 04 July 2009 - 11:58 PM

Taros - Thank you, Glad someone found it useful I hoped it might prove so I read many askings for extra increase features I even put in a request for Localised voxel increase myself.

At the moment I, as are some others here on the forum, am struggling with brushes and expected effect to try and see just how far we can push detail in 3D coat. This effort took a while as the brushes are not current suited to fine detail like this, in ZBrush it would have taken minutes but I tire of that workflow, now i have experienced the freedom of voxels. I will continue to bring up the detail only in beginnings at the moment.

I believe more so than resolution its more to do with the stroke and brush behaviour. I work it like this in Zbrush everything get converted to quads at high subdivision and that show the poly count as quads where as we read Voxel in Tri so Double the amount of Tris would be expected for same level of detail. This is 10mil tris so roughly the same resoltion as i would achive with 6 level of SD in ZBrush. I know we can achieve it i feel we are getting closer but its the brushes and stroke that are holding us back more than the resolution. To that end i will request a drag rectangle type brush similar to ZBrush that will give us a better capabillity. Its not only being able to achieve the detail its being able to achieve the detail in a comfortable manner that will garentee a big future for 3D coat.

Thats my two pence on this resolution vs detail subject.

- leigh
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