Contributor Malo Posted June 19, 2014 Contributor Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 Hi I get some weird results on baking and after exporting my gun. Lets start with some pics and my results. First of all my Retopo and UVs Looks good so far. Then when i try to bake my gun in surface mode. You see, i get these white artifacts and the normals come out realy bad. Left circle on the gunpipe. Then i switch to voxelmode and bake it again, Looks much better now. No artifacts and a much better normalmap. But the normal behavior is realy bad. You see, the shapes of my model are not staight down, they get realy curvy on some areas. Sure, i am not happy about that curvy stuff, but i give it a try and continue my work. Form the right angle that curvy stuff looks ok. I textured my model and export it. After i importet my model in Substance Designer or Blender i must see that the textures are disortet. Take a look at this. 3D-Coat - Looks as it should Blender or Substance Designer - Curvy I never run in that problems as i did with this gun. Why these artifacts and ugly normals on Surfacemode baking, and why are the textures disortet after export. Any ideas whats going wrong on my side. The only different thing that i did, was a complede fresh install of 3d coat V4.08B befor starting with that gun and i startet in Surfacemode. Any help would be nice. Regards Malo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted June 19, 2014 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 I got something similar with a file that already had good textures baked and painting work done. Autosave somehow gave me this crappy result. I sent Andrew an e-mail with this file, but he never answered back. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor AbnRanger Posted June 19, 2014 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 It creates this nasty white or empty border, around all the UV islands. It's got to be a bug of some sort. I guess that's what happens when we ask for new stuff (Paint Layer Groups)....other things get broke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted June 19, 2014 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) This waves in the normal map appears to be a scan cage problem... I am assuming you are using Names Correspondence to bake voxel / surface layers to one uv set. The problem lies in that some areas of the model, the cage is very close to the mesh which is what you need and other areas are far way which causes the scanning rays to produce the incorrect results . One possible reason for the wavy effect in the normal map. A scanning cage (inner and outer) needs to be as close as possible to the model In 3DCoat we can not at the present time adjust each object's (vox or surface layer) scanning cage (retopo mesh) when using Names Correspondence. We only can set the inner and outer cage for the overall model pieces. You will need to use Spheres of Influence to get the cage to fit the areas that are not scanning properly. I uploaded a very simple example using Names Correspondence just to show visually what I mean. The large sphere 's scanning cage is closer to the surface and the small sphere cage is further away. If I make the inner and outer settings to fit the small sphere, the large sphere cage is now incorrect. Here I would set the large sphere 's cage and then use a sphere of influence on the small sphere. The other method is to bake each object with it's own uv set one at a time (hiding the other vox / surface layers). You then can adjust each cage. After all objects have been merged to the paint,then in the uv room move all uv islands to one uv set. Next use PackUV2 because it will repack your uv islands without flipping or rotating. If you flip and rotate your uv islands that will create problems in your normal map after you apply your uv set in the uv room. Once you are done applying the uv set, delete the unused ones. This method does give you more control over each object's scanning cage but is more time consuming. Here is Ben Mathis information on the wavy problem and why it's happens. You can google it as well. Ben talks about the scanning cage problem near the bottom of the page. http://www.poopinmymouth.com/tutorial/normal_workflow_2.htm Plus here is more information at Polycount. It is a good read very informative and covering not only scan cage problems but how our low polygon geometry layout can affect the ray scanning of the normal vectors when baking from high to a low polygon mesh. http://wiki.polycount.com/NormalMap/#Solving_Wavy_Lines You are an experience user but I myself keep this link handy when I run into normal map problems. http://wiki.polycount.com/NormalMap/ Wavy normal maps is not just a 3DC problem but a general problem in any application. Here is Abn Ranger's video on the Bake Settings Dialog tool panel. Edited June 19, 2014 by digman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor Malo Posted June 19, 2014 Author Contributor Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 Thanks for the reply. I know most of that stuff, only that cage problem is new for me. After some quick tests, I dont came to a good result. The magazin of my gun is still disortet after export and that wavy stuff will always apear. It makes not realy a difference if i use inner and outer shell with 1 or 10 (sure with 1 i get black areas, but thats normal) or if i use these balls in some areas. Not sure what i could do. Maybe i should start from scratch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted June 19, 2014 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 I figured you knew a lot of this but it is good information for others. You might need to adjust your low polygon geometry flow as per one of the articles in the link. There is no more I can really add here but I hoped it has helped some. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Cowtail Posted June 19, 2014 Member Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 Just a suggestion, but try adding a few more divisions on the retopo mesh at the areas that are wavy, and perhaps separate the UVs for them so that they are their own islands with less distortion. As in the attached image, make the red parts their own islands and add more divisions (blue parts). Not sure if it'll fix it, but worth a try! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor Malo Posted June 20, 2014 Author Contributor Report Share Posted June 20, 2014 Yes, thats exactly what i try to do. First of all, get rid of that Surfacemode, and then i would create a new retopo (less lowpoly) and new UVs. Anyway, thanks to all for the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor Malo Posted June 20, 2014 Author Contributor Report Share Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) Little update: I have a new Retopo and new UVs, different object groups and pure voxel mode. Version 1 has 3800 tris, now Version 2 have 6200 tris. Much more polys as i want for a lowpoly modell, but with that count i could get rid of most of the problems. Its sad that i cant go realy lowpoly without that problems. Edited June 20, 2014 by Malo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor Malo Posted August 1, 2014 Author Contributor Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 Ok, i am still upset with that ugly baking. I always run into the same problem if i did some Lowpoly stuff. Now i found the problem. Let explain what i did I have startet with a simple cube and cut in four cones Then i create a simple 6 sided retopo. And i bake it. I choose a small inner cage to get a better contrast. You see on the read lines that the outer ring and inner ring is not symmetrical. Now i did the same with a subdivision and a smothing group. And i bake it again You see that the inner and outer circle are now symmetrical. That means for me, and this is the problem i always run into it, as lowpoly you work as ugly and incorrectly the baking is. This is ridicules for game assets. Sure you could say, then use always subdivision and smoothing groups, but i have to say that wont works. If i have a more complex shape like this. You get much uglier and weird result. Like this. You see the smoothgroups split the edges and the subdivision creates a circle out of the rectangle. Take a look into the wireframe and you see what i mean. What we need is an option for simple subdivide and not only a catmull subdivide. Did anybody know a solution for that? It sucks if i have always to switch to an external app to subdivide there and reimport it back to 3d coat for a good baking qualitiy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor ajz3d Posted August 1, 2014 Contributor Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 (edited) Could you upload those two 3b files so we can test them? I tried to reproduce the problem, but it bakes OK on my end. Edited August 1, 2014 by ajz3d Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor ajz3d Posted August 1, 2014 Contributor Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 (...)What we need is an option for simple subdivide and not only a catmull subdivide. Did anybody know a solution for that? It sucks if i have always to switch to an external app to subdivide there and reimport it back to 3d coat for a good baking qualitiy. If you turn off Auto Snap, then you can subdivide retopo mesh as much as you like without making it snap to a surface of a reference mesh. This is the same as simple subdivision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlosan Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor Malo Posted August 1, 2014 Author Contributor Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 (edited) @ajz3d Sure, if i subdivide my model i have more polys, but then i am not able to export a lowpoly model. And in your first picture i see the problem again. If the baking would be correct, the grandient color of your hole would be symmetrical. On yours it is on all 4 sides different. File is in the attachments. The second is lost, i have delete it. @carlosan Sure you subdivide it, but at the end i dont have a 6 sided cube. Like the same as ajz3d explain with subdiviide. I need the lowpoly, not a mid or highpoly. but i cant bake with the lowpoly, that gives ugly results. I cant use the subdivide option, because is makes everything to a rounded object, thats good for organic stuff but not for hardsurface. bake.7z Edited August 1, 2014 by Malo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlosan Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor Malo Posted August 1, 2014 Author Contributor Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 Nice a idea, but still wont works. On easy shapes it is ok, but on a more complex it wont works. First of all, i lost all of my fine details. Befor After Second is, a ugly export. Befor After Baked on 4096 and maximum polycount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlosan Posted August 3, 2014 Report Share Posted August 3, 2014 using merge selected only one face New version, new options 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlosan Posted August 4, 2014 Report Share Posted August 4, 2014 Testing same cube using xNormal Smooth normals = harden normals do the trick 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member probiner Posted August 4, 2014 Member Report Share Posted August 4, 2014 (edited) I normally just got straight to xNormal. Adds more work, takes a bit to get used to, but also give you more control and reliable results Cheers Edited August 4, 2014 by probiner 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor ajz3d Posted August 4, 2014 Contributor Report Share Posted August 4, 2014 I normally just got straight to xNormal. Adds more work, takes a bit to get used to, but also give you more control and reliable results Cheers One question. Is it possible to explode the mesh in xNormal and bake in a similar manner that 3D Coat's "Use name correspondence for baking" works? Or doing it manually one object after another and then combining the normal map is the only choice there is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor Malo Posted August 4, 2014 Author Contributor Report Share Posted August 4, 2014 @carlosan Thanks for the help. The new options dont realy help on this problem. I know Xnormal solve that problem, but this is not the goal to switching Apps to do some jobs that should be easily done in 3d coat. Sure if there is no way, i have to redefine my pipeline, and this sucks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member probiner Posted August 5, 2014 Member Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 One question. Is it possible to explode the mesh in xNormal and bake in a similar manner that 3D Coat's "Use name correspondence for baking" works? Or doing it manually one object after another and then combining the normal map is the only choice there is? Sorry I don't know "Use name correspondence for baking" rays will only stopped at the corresponding/match object? That's neat. I guess you'll have to do it by hand if you want to isolate low objects from catching details or other high objects. That would be a nice request though, allow the baking be done in sets, Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted February 4, 2015 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 (edited) The thread pegged my interest again, I did some further research on the normal map waves problem... I also found a few retopo mesh tricks to help the baking for the normal map projection. I have been getting together with Malo through Skype to go over the problems he was having... The model here is a 16 sided mesh with some ridges with no bevels. Better to have a few bevels to soften the vertex normal direction angles. In this case I wanted to see how well of a normal map I could get without the bevels. Normal map baking likes them bevels but I starved it of them... LOL. No distress sculpting put on the model to help hide waves. Model 206 quads, 412 Tris. Modelled in Wings3D. Baking; Baked for PPP No subdivision 2k map. Here are the results, the model is positioned to revel waves not hide them. 1st picture is the imported hardsurface model in surface mode. 2nd picture on the top left is the normal map, top right, is the metal PBR material... Bottom left is the model without the normal map. Bottom right is more of a top down view. 3rd picture is with a plastic material that will highlight waves. Last picture is the wireframe view in the paint room. On such a low polygon model you will never get rid of every single wave on a non beveled model but it is a 99% improvement... Edited February 4, 2015 by digman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contributor Malo Posted February 5, 2015 Author Contributor Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 Thank you very much for time to take a look into my problems. It was realy nice and informativ to talk with you. Now it looks much better as in my test object, that we worked on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlosan Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 I was reading this info, related to this post if anyone like to check Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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