zbrush fibermesh equivalent

[geo_n]

Do we have something similar to it in 3dcoat? It seems its one feature in zbrush that is really powerful for doing hair and importing in native app.

The combing tools is superior. Would think that 3dcoat can offer the same with its brush system.

[L'Ancien Regime]

Unfortunately not....not yet anyway though who knows what Andrew is cooking up in his laboratory?

[Carlosan]

There was an oooold plan about to make hairs and fur using many polygons with alpha mask or lines with transparency gradient.

Andrew think that approach is not actual anymore

But if it is required, He may resume doing this (of course after v4 release).

[AbnRanger]

I can see how handy it would be for some...but I think, like rendering, rigging and animation, hair is better left to apps that already have extensive tools for the job...which most 3D apps do. I'd rather Andrew focus less on more and more features and instead, more and more stability, refinement of what is in 3D Coat and performance. It already has so many options and features that it can be a nightmare trying to explain to trial users that you have 4 different types of sculpting, and 2 types of painting, etc.

[L'Ancien Regime]

I can see how handy it would be for some...but I think, like rendering, rigging and animation, hair is better left to apps that already have extensive tools for the job...which most 3D apps do. I'd rather Andrew focus less on more and more features and instead, more and more stability, refinement of what is in 3D Coat and performance. It already has so many options and features that it can be a nightmare trying to explain to trial users that you have 4 different types of sculpting, and 2 types of painting, etc.

The thing is that fibermesh is rapidly turning out to be THE way to do hair and then port the splines into whatever hair program you want for completion be it Maya, Houdini C4d or Joe Alter. Wouldn't it be nice if when Raul got out of Cuba again he could cook up a 3d coat equivalent??

And some fully functional vector displacement mapping too...

If 3d Coat had those two things it would totally rule Mudbox and Zbrush.

[Tony Nemo]

A user at C4D Cafe mentioned his pleasure with the chain mail he could make in Zbrush using this technique (as a way of explaining his preference for Zbrush).

[AbnRanger]

The thing is that fibermesh is rapidly turning out to be THE way to do hair and then port the splines into whatever hair program you want for completion be it Maya, Houdini C4d or Joe Alter. Wouldn't it be nice if when Raul got out of Cuba again he could cook up a 3d coat equivalent??

And some fully functional vector displacement mapping too...

If 3d Coat had those two things it would totally rule Mudbox and Zbrush.

The reason I'm so skeptical about having hair done in 3D Coat (I actually think before they came out with Fiber Mesh, 3D Coat had the best tool for doing hair....the Muscles tool...it can do thick blobs or very fine strands), is that 3ds Max and C4D have Shave and a HairCut built in and it has some wicked combing/trimming tools. If Raul comes back and gets LiveClay done the way he likes, it might be a nice task. But I recall asking Andrew about incorporating a true layer system in the Voxel Room. Where (for example) you can sculpt some wrinkle detail on one layer, bumps on the other....and dial down the depth value on those...even masking part of layer. He said he knew how, and would look at trying to implement it in the V4 cycle.

Right now, you can do that only in the Paint Room, with layers. But that means you have to wait until you get into the Paint Room (without the benefit of all the sculpting tools in the Voxel Room) to do that type of work. This is something both Mudbox and ZBrush have had for a long time now, and it's one of the reasons more of those artists don't leave those tools to sculpt in 3D Coat. I'd much rather Andrew tackle this first, before trying something unrelated to what 3D Coat does. Whether it works well or not, I always thought of FiberMesh as a gimmick for ZBrush...because they ran out of ideas. Hence their (3D Coat) copying campaign (from R4-4.5).

3D Coat's Baking also still leaves a lot to be desired...to the point that I don't even use Micro Vertex mode, as I rarely get a decent usable bake from it. Since 3D Coat is so reliant on baking (from Voxels to Low Poly), it stands to reason that it should have a reputation for having one of the best baking engines in the market. Right now, it's not even close. We don't even have true Ambient Occlusion baking. That's been on the feature request list for years. Since ZBrush had 7-8yrs to build and refine their toolset before 3D Coat entered the market...and since they have a bigger dev. staff, Andrew has to pick his battles more wisely

[L'Ancien Regime]

The reason I'm so skeptical about having hair done in 3D Coat (I actually think before they came out with Fiber Mesh, 3D Coat had the best tool for doing hair....the Muscles tool...it can do thick blobs or very fine strands), is that 3ds Max and C4D have Shave and a HairCut built in and it has some wicked combing/trimming tools. If Raul comes back and gets LiveClay done the way he likes, it might be a nice task. But I recall asking Andrew about incorporating a true layer system in the Voxel Room. Where (for example) you can sculpt some wrinkle detail on one layer, bumps on the other....and dial down the depth value on those...even masking part of layer. He said he knew how, and would look at trying to implement it in the V4 cycle.

Right now, you can do that only in the Paint Room, with layers. But that means you have to wait until you get into the Paint Room (without the benefit of all the sculpting tools in the Voxel Room) to do that type of work. This is something both Mudbox and ZBrush have had for a long time now, and it's one of the reasons more of those artists don't leave those tools to sculpt in 3D Coat. I'd much rather Andrew tackle this first, before trying something unrelated to what 3D Coat does. Whether it works well or not, I always thought of FiberMesh as a gimmick for ZBrush...because they ran out of ideas. Hence their (3D Coat) copying campaign (from R4-4.5).

3D Coat's Baking also still leaves a lot to be desired...to the point that I don't even use Micro Vertex mode, as I rarely get a decent usable bake from it. Since 3D Coat is so reliant on baking (from Voxels to Low Poly), it stands to reason that it should have a reputation for having one of the best baking engines in the market. Right now, it's not even close. We don't even have true Ambient Occlusion baking. That's been on the feature request list for years. Since ZBrush had 7-8yrs to build and refine their toolset before 3D Coat entered the market...and since they have a bigger dev. staff, Andrew has to pick his battles more wisely

All true. I wasn't demanding he fall to these tasks immediately but it's something that would be cool to have down the line. Vector displacement is listed as being a part of 3d coat but I can't make it function full nor can Digman. I'd like to see that completed before any hair module is inserted.

[AbnRanger]

All true. I wasn't demanding he fall to these tasks immediately but it's something that would be cool to have down the line. Vector displacement is listed as being a part of 3d coat but I can't make it function full nor can Digman. I'd like to see that completed before any hair module is inserted.

I asked Andrew about this before and he said the only way Vector displacement will work is if you deform/sculpt the object in the Tweak Room, and that deformation will be reflected in the vector displacement map...but not Voxels to MV. I can't recall the reason exactly, but what I do know is this stuff makes my brain hurt.

[geo_n]

I'm not asking about voxel or sculpted hair though.

L'Ancien Regime got it. People are already using zbrush to do hairstyles with its robust tools and export the splines for rendering in the host app.

3dmax and lw don't have good hair tools for styling. You need a third party plugin for max and lw has nothing at all except its native tools which suck.

[L'Ancien Regime]

Ah no voxels to MV but what about Surface Mode to Per Pixel Painting vector displacement?

https://encrypted-tb...NdXeJuYPhQzx1NY

I'm not asking about voxel or sculpted hair though.

L'Ancien Regime got it. People are already using zbrush to do hairstyles with its robust tools and export the splines for rendering in the host app.

3dmax and lw don't have good hair tools for styling. You need a third party plugin for max and lw has nothing at all except its native tools which suck.

Nobody has a good tool set for hair styling...except Zbrush's robust solution.

Zbrush for generating the splines then export to whatever; Blender, C4D, Joe Alter, Maya Hair and Fur, Lightwave, 3ds Max, Luxology Modo whatever.

[AbnRanger]

I'm not asking about voxel or sculpted hair though.

L'Ancien Regime got it. People are already using zbrush to do hairstyles with its robust tools and export the splines for rendering in the host app.

3dmax and lw don't have good hair tools for styling. You need a third party plugin for max and lw has nothing at all except its native tools which suck.

Can't speak for LW, but 3ds Max has killer styling/combing options...and it WAS a third party plugin. Joe Alter's "Shave and a Haircut." And again, I'm not saying it would not be a cool feature to copy from ZBrush...seeing they've recently copied so much from 3D Coat. But to me, personally...it's much like Vertex Painting and even Ptex. Cool, but it would have been better to stabilize the app., refine the tools that were already in 3D Coat, and bring the performance up to the level of it's competitors...before embarking on these features that few will actually use. I practically never use Ptex or Vertex Painting. To me, those things are like putting off critical engine repairs in order to buy some psuedo-chrome hub caps for your vehicle. Sure they might look cool....AFTER you've fixed your ride. But they don't help you one bit while it's still in the garage...so to speak.

It's like that cool looking treadmill you walked past, in the big retail store. Suddenly you have all these grand thoughts about how you could lose weight while watching your favorite TV shows, etc, etc. A year later, and you're still paying for it on your credit card...it's all dusty, with barely a few miles worth of usage. Money down the drain and you're considering selling it, so you can get some of your money back and free up some space. Not all things that glitter is gold. Hair Fibers in 3D Coat is like towing a hot dog stand behind your truck, so you can grab one now and then, when you get hungry. Better to stop by the convenience store and buy one, instead. Let's leave that stuff to the apps that already do it, and not divert Andrew's attention away from the more important matters within 3D Coat. Every new feature request has the potential to jump ahead of other users requests, which they've patiently wait for...sometimes even years (Andrew just didn't have the time to get around to it). Things like bugfixes/stability and improvements to the tools inside the app.

[geo_n]

Can't speak for LW, but 3ds Max has killer styling/combing options...and it WAS a third party plugin. Joe Alter's "Shave and a Haircut."

I am guessing you haven't really used the native hair in 3dmax. I do know its joe shave and haircut and it still sucks, sorry.

The only way we do hair in max is hairtrix, a bit pricey but its the only sane way to do hair in max.

Oh I forgot hairfarm but don't have experience with it.

[geo_n]

Nobody has a good tool set for hair styling...except Zbrush's robust solution.

Agreed. Natively there's none. Now I'm seeing a lot of users using zbrush so it must be good.

[AbnRanger]

I am guessing you haven't really used the native hair in 3dmax. I do know is joe shave and haircut and it still sucks, sorry.

The only way we do hair in max is hairtrix, a bit pricey but its the only sane way to do hair in max.

I have indeed used it and the styling/combing/trimming does not suck. Joe Alter knows how to do hair (that's why Max, Softimage and C4D included it as their native Hair/Fur utility). Viewport performance in Max improved a lot in 2012-2013, so, it's not as bad as it was in 2011.

[AbnRanger]

Agreed. Natively there's none. Now I'm seeing a lot of users using zbrush so it must be good.

A lot of artists use ZBrush's vertex painting, but that doesn't mean 3D Coat needed it, too. I think there is a lot window shopping in the 3D Community, and if one app does something then everybody else wants one for their software. If Andrew hired the Octane Render guys to pimp out the render room, that would be cool, but that doesn't mean it would benefit most of the userbase, and it also doesn't mean that Mudbox or ZB should do likewise.

If ZB users like doing their hair there, instead of their host app...good for them. But that doesn't mean Andrew needs to shut down all the other application needs and prior requests, just to give us another shiny new toy to occupy our attention for a while. If we had the staff Pixologic has, I'd say "cool...go for it." But we have just one guy handling feature requests, large and small....and bug fixing. That's a tall, tall order...and there is much left to do before even considering a hair tool.

I asked about CUDA recompile (hasn't seen a recompile ever....was adopted at CUDA 1, and we are at CUDA 5). Andrew said he would try to get to it in the V4 cycle. True layers in the Voxel Room...an Outliner panel for the whole app...Shell tool in the Retopo Room. Dot Ring/Edge selection in the Retopo Room. Soft/Gradient Selection to make it easier to tweak mesh sections with the Transform tool, in the Retopo Room. True Ambient Occlusion baking (has been a request for years now). Usable Vector Displacement maps. Better baking all around...especially for Micro Vertex. True UV tiling/patches. And that's just scratching the surface of current feature requests for REFINING/IMPROVING WHAT IS ALREADY IN 3D COAT. We haven't even mentioned all the bug reports. We have one guy to do all of this, and you want Andrew to drop all of that and give you a fuzzy dice maker?

I know it's not what you want to hear....but it's the reality of the matter. Too much under-the-hood work left to do, IMHO.

[geo_n]

I have indeed used it and the styling/combing/trimming does not suck. Joe Alter knows how to do hair (that's why Max, Softimage and C4D included it as their native Hair/Fur utility). Viewport performance in Max improved a lot in 2012-2013, so, it's not as bad as it was in 2011.

Please show what project and quality you have used max native hair. Otherwise this is not relevant.

[L'Ancien Regime]

I must say that Abn Ranger is right here and like I said I'm definitely not trying to push Andrew to do this or that to the overall detriment of 3d Coat. But Vector Displacement has already been included in 3d coat...I'd like to see that fully functional with surface mode/live clay to the retopo layer.

[AbnRanger]

Please show what project and quality you have used max native hair. Otherwise this is not relevant.

A (gimmick) Hair tool is not relevant.....to 3D Coat.

[michalis]

Abn is right.

I played a lot with zbrush fiber mesh. It's good to some, not that good to others.

I mostly prefer the blender hair room. Lot of people believe that it's not that good but they just never worked on it. It's wonderful IMO. Zb, not so...

I asked Andrew about this before and he said the only way Vector displacement will work is if you deform/sculpt the object in the Tweak Room, and that deformation will be reflected in the vector displacement map...but not Voxels to MV.

That's interesting. I'll keep saying it. This "tweak room" is the very weak point of 3dcoat. Without multiresolution sculpting don't expect great quality of baked maps.

The reason is obvious. Approximated baking methods should be avoided. Otherwise, not having hair cut room in 3dcoat is not a big deal.

Such new features in zbrush, like fibermesh, hard surfacing loop tools, box modeling like tools, etc, made me lost my interest on this Zb app and concentrate on blender. As this is my basic 3d app. The more I learn it the more I love it. Same goes for the users of all the other major massive 3d apps.

[artman]

Fibermesh seems to rely on some sort of instancing system so.... since there is already an Instancing feature in 3DCoat maybe it wouldnt be that hard to implement.

[geo_n]

A (gimmick) Hair tool is not relevant.....to 3D Coat.

How do you know its going to be a gimmick hairtool when there's no hair tool in 3dcoat???? Should we just focus on the voxel room and liveclay for the longest time???

There's already one artist from Rhythm and Hues that uses fibermesh for hair to bring into lw as splineguides because the haistyling tools in lw suck. And if you say 3dmax has good native tools then show a project that you used it on that has quality. We don't use it and prefer to use hairtrix.

Abn is right.

I played a lot with zbrush fiber mesh. It's good to some, not that good to others.

I mostly prefer the blender hair room. Lot of people believe that it's not that good but they just never worked on it. It's wonderful IMO. Zb, not so...

Blender is not a tool we would use...ever.

[L'Ancien Regime]

I can see where voxel to vectors might not be feasible for vector displacement, but why not live clay to vectors? Because it's triangles to quadrangles?

[AbnRanger]

How do you know its going to be a gimmick hairtool when there's no hair tool in 3dcoat????

There's already one artist from Rhythm and Hues that uses fibermesh for hair to bring into lw as splineguides because the haistyling tools in lw suck. And if you say 3dmax has good native tools then show a project that you used it on that has quality. We don't use it and prefer to use hairtrix.

Blender is not a tool we would use...ever.

Why are you asking me to dig up show and tell material, when it doesn't matter? If the result is great or if it sucks, it still doesn't say anything about the actually work experience. Watch the videos I just linked to, for a brief demo of the....tools in practice.

Either way, it certainly doesn't mean 3D Coat needs to pick up the slack, if there was any?

Should we just focus on the voxel room and liveclay for the longest time???

Uh, yes....Andrew should continue to improve Sculpting and Painting......cause that is what 3D Coat does, in case you haven't noticed.

[AbnRanger]

Fibermesh seems to rely on some sort of instancing system so.... since there is already an Instancing feature in 3DCoat maybe it wouldnt be that hard to implement.

3D Coat has layers and masking in the Paint room, so surely it wouldn't be that hard to implement layers in the Voxel Room...would it? It also has modeling tools in the Retopo Room, so surely it wouldn't be too hard to implement a Shell (thickness) tool, there. It has Edge Loop/Ring selection in the Retopo Room, so surely it wouldn't be that hard to implement a Dot Loop/Ring function (that can make poly reduction a snap)...right? It also has gradient/soft selection in the Tweak room, so surely that wouldn't be too hard to implement soft selection in the transform tool (Retopo Room).

3D Coat has CUDA support in the Voxel Room. It shouldn't be that hard, then, to utilize it in the Paint Room too, and recompile it for a newer version of CUDA while we're at it...right? We've got people lining up in support of Layer Grouping in the Paint Room. Why then are we trying to jump ahead of them because we want a fuzzy dice maker? Why? Cause ZBrush does it and it's cool. Great reason to make those guys wait even longer to get what they've been patiently waiting on.

[Carlosan]

3DC is fast making sculpts

if you need to show a fast model previz with hairs have sense

i remember only once i need to do a worewolf...

after retopo... Blender hair is fast superior to previz

in my case...

i prefer all the 3dc dev team focused improving the render room, render passes, SSS and light handles.

[Zeddicus]

i prefer all the 3dc dev team focused improving the render room, render passes, SSS and light handles.

Using the same logic I've seen in this thread thus far, the render room is an unimportant feature and shouldn't be bothered with. It's something that can be done better in plenty of other apps out there. Many of them even have multiple renderers. Get rid of the retopo and UV room as well since they too can be done in many other apps already. See where I'm going with this?

For every feature one user feels is useless and unneeded, no doubt there is another who feels just as strongly it is important and does need it. You have to remember that not everyone who buys 3D Coat, which is a very affordable program with a lot of bang for the buck, has the means to buy a ton of other apps to fill in the gaps. Being a pro doesn't make one any more entitled than a hobbyist either.

The question that really needs to be asked; what kind of program does Andrew want 3D Coat to be? Is the ultimate goal an app you can work in from start to finish without ever having to use another app, or is it just meant to be a sculpting app? If it's the latter, why bother with so many features that have nothing to do with that? If it's the former, then every major feature 3D Coat lacks (like hair) is going to be important. Is this not logical?

That's not to say something like hair (or even something that is already in there, e.g. vector displacement) should be a priority right now. There are a ton of bugs and inconsistencies that need to be fixed first, and this is going to take a while. Even so, hair should still be on the to do list alongside many other features 3D Coat doesn't have, yet probably should (I would like to see rendering improved too btw). Again it all depends on what it is Andrew wishes to ultimately achieve.

Hopefully I didn't ruffle too many feathers with my comment. I'm just trying to find the logical middle ground. Some make suggestions, others make demands, but when you get right down to it all of these things aren't something any of us should bother arguing over, because like I said it's Andrews call. This being the case, nobody needs to be afraid of adding a request for hair to Mantis. Doing so isn't going to cause any harm, nor is it something one should ever fear being harassed over.

[Carlosan]

Zediccus, I disagree -sorry-

you are not using the same logic, because one thing is to

- develop a new feature/resource

and another

- Finish developing an old feature/resource by conforming to standard

Some 3DC features/resources/tools/rooms/whatever... are below the standard offered in other apps

My POV >

- First finish developing old 3DC tools making it TOP CLASS APP,

- and then add new features.

The another historic way...

is to develop new and new and new features stopping every new one at the middle, because begin developing a new one and so on.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Develop time need a Begin, Middle, End.

Why 3DC tools never have an END ? Because there isnt a ROADMAP.

Finishing my long post -and sorry for that

- thats what we need to ask for, and thats is the source of all the tribulations.

3DC development need a ROADMAP, with high and low priorities.

[AbnRanger]

Using the same logic I've seen in this thread thus far, the render room is an unimportant feature and shouldn't be bothered with. It's something that can be done better in plenty of other apps out there. Many of them even have multiple renderers. Get rid of the retopo and UV room as well since they too can be done in many other apps already. See where I'm going with this?

For every feature one user feels is useless and unneeded, no doubt there is another who feels just as strongly it is important and does need it. You have to remember that not everyone who buys 3D Coat, which is a very affordable program with a lot of bang for the buck, has the means to buy a ton of other apps to fill in the gaps. Being a pro doesn't make one any more entitled than a hobbyist either.

The question that really needs to be asked; what kind of program does Andrew want 3D Coat to be? Is the ultimate goal an app you can work in from start to finish without ever having to use another app, or is it just meant to be a sculpting app? If it's the latter, why bother with so many features that have nothing to do with that? If it's the former, then every major feature 3D Coat lacks (like hair) is going to be important. Is this not logical?

That's not to say something like hair (or even something that is already in there, e.g. vector displacement) should be a priority right now. There are a ton of bugs and inconsistencies that need to be fixed first, and this is going to take a while. Even so, hair should still be on the to do list alongside many other features 3D Coat doesn't have, yet probably should (I would like to see rendering improved too btw). Again it all depends on what it is Andrew wishes to ultimately achieve.

Hopefully I didn't ruffle too many feathers with my comment. I'm just trying to find the logical middle ground. Some make suggestions, others make demands, but when you get right down to it all of these things aren't something any of us should bother arguing over, because like I said it's Andrews call. This being the case, nobody needs to be afraid of adding a request for hair to Mantis. Doing so isn't going to cause any harm, nor is it something one should ever fear being harassed over.

I still consider Ptex and Vertex Painting gimmicks that really didn't need to be added. Once Andrew more fully developed/refined the tools that it had, become known as stable instead of having a rep as a buggy, gimmicky app....then it could grow enough to allow Andrew to hire more staff. And with more staff, then some of these shiny new toys could be added. I would have been 100 times more happy if Ptex and Vertex Painting had been shelved in favor of Andrew reaching 3 primary goals.

1) Rock solid stable app

2) Rock solid texture baking, including merging to MicroVertex Mode. Every single time I try to merge to that mode, it's an exercise in futility. 3D Coat should be known for it's texture baking...and in a good way, not a bad one. Still no true Ambient Occlusion baking.

3) But-kicking, name-taking performance...across the entire application. Mudbox has been there for a few years now. No reason 3D Coat can't be, too.

But hey, at least we got two big shiny trinkets in the app, that if truth be told...very few people use. Now all we need is a fuzzy dice maker to make everything complete.

[BeatKitano]

Something I learned during app dev is it's soooo easy (and much more fun) to add feature, sooo much easier than fixing bugs. Andrew so far has been a champion at adding features (look at the timespan between 3dc and zbrush and compare their feature, it's impressive), if users are still pushing for new features all the time all we'll get is a feature packed app that does nothing properly because every function conflict with each other. We'll end up like we did a few months ago in the liveclay area: bugs accumulating during a session corrupting the work done with no hope of recovery.

Is that what we want ? Shouldn't we ask for consolidating the EXISTING tools, fixing the bugs, before asking more bug generating functions ?

You all do what you want but I don't think Andrew needs to be pushed regarding new tools, he obviously enjoy doing so, imo.