Advanced Member SonK Posted May 7, 2008 Advanced Member Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 That's not true. Vector displacement makes it possible to sculpt in 3D not only in normal direction. What you refer as vector displacement is normal map displacement or what you now should call it. It's a trick to make it possible to paint displacement on a higher reolution than possible to show. Zbrush does this as well with its pixols technology, people like to think they are sculptinig billions of polygons in realtime, but they're not, because it's not possible with raw computer power. They all use tricks to make it look like you're sculpting at very hires. Zbrush has solved it the best then mudbox comes after that. 3DCoat and modo does this with normal maps and does a nice job, but not in the same league as Zbrush and Mudbox. The cool thing though is that Zbrush doesn't have vector displacement yet only modo does. 3DC does do vector displacement internally, according to Andrew(maybe i misunderstood his english?). Vector displacement is just having the ability to use a image base sculpt and being able to sculpting XYZ axis, instead of just along the normal direction as in Zbrush and Mudbox. Whether it's pushes ten thousand polygons or 10 million is not relevant. Beside, neither Zbrush or Mudbox can output a vector displacement map as far as i know. They can however output a normal grey scale displacement map. normal displacement = (Mudbox,Zbrush) grey scale TIFF (pushing along the normals) vector displacement = Modo - EXR (pushing in any direction(XYZ)). Andrew, i'll make a video for you about Modo. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Ztreem Posted May 7, 2008 Member Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 3DC does do vector displacement internally, according to Andrew(maybe i misunderstood his english?). Vector displacement is just having the ability to use a image base sculpt and being able to sculpting XYZ axis, instead of just along the normal direction as in Zbrush and Mudbox. Whether it's pushes ten thousand polygons or 10 million is not relevant. normal displacement = grey scale (Mudbox,Zbrush) TIFF (pushing along the normals) vector displacement = Modo - EXR (pushing in any direction(XYZ). Ok, if it does it internally, but you can't utilize it when sculpting. You maybe know more about this then I do, but I've seen no proof of vector displacement when I done my sculpts in 3DCoat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member SonK Posted May 7, 2008 Advanced Member Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 Ok, if it does it internally, but you can't utilize it when sculpting. You maybe know more about this then I do, but I've seen no proof of vector displacement when I done my sculpts in 3DCoat. that's true as far as 3DC is concern because i can not create a over hang type sculpt, so maybe its not exposed to the user yet..which would explain the lack of more sculpting tools in the normal paint mode. In Modo however i can do crazy over hangs, so it definitely pushing in XZY via vector displacement. heh..let save that for 2.10 feature request....Andrew is being over worked and under paid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Ztreem Posted May 7, 2008 Member Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 that's true as far as 3DC is concern because i can not create a over hang type sculpt, so maybe its not exposed to the user yet..which would explain the lack of more sculpting tools in the normal paint mode. In Modo however i can do crazy over hangs, so it definitely pushing in XZY via vector displacement.heh..let save that for 2.10 feature request....Andrew is being over worked and under paid. That's exactly what I was refering to, no vector displacement for the end user, but I'm sure Andrew fixes this fast enough. yeah, 2.10 sounds good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Shpagin Posted May 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 There is the link to 3DC with EXR support and possibility to export/import world space vector displacement. http://www.3d-coat.com/files/3d-Coat-209B3B-en.exe World space displacement works well in LW, tangent space is not perfect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member SonK Posted May 7, 2008 Advanced Member Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 I have made EXR support, but I need some testing. How can I apply displacement in Modo? Can someone explain it step by step? I use sphere as a sample. I made a quick video showing you how to apply a vector displacement in Modo: http://www.sendspace.com/file/gt4syi but i think there is a bug with Modo vector displacement, upon import the strength is weaken.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member rimasson Posted May 7, 2008 Advanced Member Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 but i think there is a bug with Modo vector displacement, upon import the strength is weaken.. Yep, but you can change low and high values Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member yukon_28 Posted May 7, 2008 Advanced Member Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 SonK & others, now i am not as sure if understand everything right, so please correct me if i wrong: What i though, is that displacement works like this: Displacement and bump maps works by taking amount of displacement from grayscale map's pixel and pushing\pulling vertex along its normal. The difference is that displacement maps doing it by truly displace geometry, while bump faking rendering engine (and it is the reason why bump maps costs virtually nothing compared to displacement). Normal maps, instead of pushing and pulling vertex along its normal using real XYZ coordinates. Like bump maps, normal maps faking renderer and not displace geometry in reality (that why its called "normal bump" in some applications, max for example). It captures all needed details, but the problem is that because of "fake" nature of those maps you cant use them for larger details, as it will have to change mesh silhouette, and it is not possible without displacing geometry. There is some workarounds to silhouette issue, like relief mapping, but its expansive for rendering, nearly as real displacement maps. Then, newcomer, vector displacement doing the same thing as normal map, but instead of faking renderer it really displace geometry, with the ability to create overhangs, thats why if we are not taking render times into account vector displacement it is an ultimate solution for capturing details from super hi-res meshes and transfering them to low or midpoly meshes. Where i am wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputable Contributor digman Posted May 7, 2008 Reputable Contributor Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 The lastest beta from this forum thread crashes on opening the program on my system. Andrew has my system stats from the bug reports I sent him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member SonK Posted May 8, 2008 Advanced Member Report Share Posted May 8, 2008 Yep, but you can change low and high values aa yes, the LXO file doesn't save the low value. i'll report it as a bug. Andrew, you can set the low value to -100 and high value to 100: digman, i had a odd crash also..just painted with spec,color,depth on the default sphere, crash! BTW is it just me or i don't see a .EXR import option in the latest beta? SonK & others, now i am not as sure if understand everything right, so please correct me if i wrong:What i though, is that displacement works like this: Displacement and bump maps works by taking amount of displacement from grayscale map's pixel and pushing\pulling vertex along its normal. The difference is that displacement maps doing it by truly displace geometry, while bump faking rendering engine (and it is the reason why bump maps costs virtually nothing compared to displacement). Normal maps, instead of pushing and pulling vertex along its normal using real XYZ coordinates. Like bump maps, normal maps faking renderer and not displace geometry in reality (that why its called "normal bump" in some applications, max for example). It captures all needed details, but the problem is that because of "fake" nature of those maps you cant use them for larger details, as it will have to change mesh silhouette, and it is not possible without displacing geometry. There is some workarounds to silhouette issue, like relief mapping, but its expansive for rendering, nearly as real displacement maps. Then, newcomer, vector displacement doing the same thing as normal map, but instead of faking renderer it really displace geometry, with the ability to create overhangs, thats why if we are not taking render times into account vector displacement it is an ultimate solution for capturing details from super hi-res meshes and transfering them to low or midpoly meshes. Where i am wrong? Sound right to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Shpagin Posted May 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2008 Thanks! Now I am able to attply displacement in Modo & LW. I have reproduced the bug that was mentioned, I am trying to understand and fix... I think some dll-s are missed. It is all because of EXR ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member yukon_28 Posted May 8, 2008 Advanced Member Report Share Posted May 8, 2008 Andrew, may be it will help you in implementing EXR to 3DC. There is great plugin called ProEXR. What its doing, is adding support to layered EXR files to Photoshop and After Effects. Photoshop version costs some money, but AE version is not only free, but provided with sources. So, may be you can use it in some way ? Support to layered EXR files in 3DC would be great imo, and it can be used when working between PS and 3DC. Here ProEXR link: http://www.fnordware.com/ProEXR/ And OpenEXR: http://www.fnordware.com/OpenEXR/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Shpagin Posted May 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2008 Andrew, may be it will help you in implementing EXR to 3DC. There is great plugin called ProEXR. What its doing, is adding support to layered EXR files to Photoshop and After Effects. Photoshop version costs some money, but AE version is not only free, but provided with sources. So, may be you can use it in some way ? Support to layered EXR files in 3DC would be great imo, and it can be used when working between PS and 3DC.Here ProEXR link: http://www.fnordware.com/ProEXR/ And OpenEXR: http://www.fnordware.com/OpenEXR/ Ok, I will look at it. I have updated the link, now vector displacement works well with Modo. LW support will be improved tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member rimasson Posted May 8, 2008 Advanced Member Report Share Posted May 8, 2008 I noticed that you can even import floating point tif pictures from Mudbox. they have negative values because they are centered around Zero, instead of a middle gray value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Shpagin Posted May 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2008 I noticed that you can even import floating point tif pictures from Mudbox. they have negative values because they are centered around Zero, instead of a middle gray value. Is there possible negative values? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member rimasson Posted May 9, 2008 Advanced Member Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 Yes, negative values are possible, it's very surprising. This kind of map loads in 3Dcoat like a charm. I would like to touch up and paint Mudbox's Floating point displacement maps in 3d, but as they have negative intensity, it was a huge problem. I'm actually using Bodypaint to do that, and, even if Bodypaint can work with Float pics, they are clamped at Zero when i load some. 3d coat seems to be a solution. Fantastic. I know only one (old) 2D software that can preview an paint (unfortunately, in 2D) over such a map : photogenics There's just one drawback : Actually, when you load a displacement map, Middle gray = Zero displacement, could you just add an option to specify that Black = Zero displacement, to have a good compatibility with Mudbox, when you load a displacement map ?. The advantage of working with floating points pics in production is that you don't have to worry anymore about the displacement range. With 16b pics, you have to specify a displacement range or distance (ex : from -2.5 to 2.5, with the middle gray value as zero displacement) which is a kind of multiplier to the map. Floating point pics can manage values that go from -XX to +XX. They're not limited to 0 to 65535., the value normally defines a real distance. Even if you have to specify a range in Modo, you should not have to do that, like in Mudbox. I exported a map from Mudbox, and i had to enter a scale factor of depth of 40 in 3DC to have the same result. Is it normal ? I also noticed that, in the latest release, you can now load vector displacement maps without any problem. Thanks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Ztreem Posted May 9, 2008 Member Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 I also noticed that, in the latest release, you can now load vector displacement maps without any problem.Thanks. Any pics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member rimasson Posted May 9, 2008 Advanced Member Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 Here is the magic mushroom. I imported a vector displacement from Modo on a layer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Shpagin Posted May 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 could you just add an option to specify that Black = Zero displacement, to have a good compatibility with Mudbox, when you load a displacement map ?. Just now making it. It is interesting to know, maybe Mudbox does not makes any scaling for vector displacement? Maybe I will add 3 options: 1) grey-based 2) zero-based, normalised (-1..1) 3) zero based, raw, as is - I think it is what you need I think it opens possibility for peoples to sculpt in Mudbox and paint in 3DC (or paint what was done before). It is good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Ztreem Posted May 9, 2008 Member Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 rimasson: Thanks, looks good. Andrew: will it be possible to sculpt in vector displacement mode in 3DCoat or is it only for import from other apps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Shpagin Posted May 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 Also, it is interesting, does ZBrush able to export VD? It could be good method to move creatures to or from ZBrush/Mudbox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Shpagin Posted May 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 Andrew: will it be possible to sculpt in vector displacement mode in 3DCoat or is it only for import from other apps? Of course possible. You can do it now in sculpt mode (Drag with pen) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member rimasson Posted May 9, 2008 Advanced Member Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 No, Zb can't export (Yet ) vector displacement. As export needs the same Uvs on the lowest and the highest subviv model, this shouldn't be a problem. Mayube in the future. I've asked the development team. I've done some test to move a model from Zb to 3dCoat. There's actually no problem, using a standart displacement map. Now, this will be possible to move a model back and froth to Modo and Mudbox. Thanks for the 3 import options for the displacement map. this should work. Could you also add the same 3 options when you save a map ? (raw zero based, grey based ?) Having the ability to open a displacement map zero-centered, then save it is a good way to convert it to a middle-gray centered map. (actually, it is the ONLY way ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member yukon_28 Posted May 9, 2008 Advanced Member Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 Talking about zbrush, is it possible to edit 32bit displacement maps from zbrush in 3DC ? Those maps are ideal for rendering in max (MR), you does not have to worry about alpha gain etc. P.S. I glad to hear that 3DC plays with modo well now. Its fantastic that now we can walk between modo and 3DC using vector displacement maps. And its unique to 3DC, afaik no other 3d painter can do it. We need to make topic in modo forums, i think that many modo users would be interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Shpagin Posted May 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 Does modo able to handle World space VD? about float displacement - now normal displacement also could be exported as EXR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member rimasson Posted May 9, 2008 Advanced Member Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 Talking about zbrush, is it possible to edit 32bit displacement maps from zbrush in 3DC ? Those maps are ideal for rendering in max (MR), you does not have to worry about alpha gain etc.P.S. I glad to hear that 3DC plays with modo well now. Its fantastic that now we can walk between modo and 3DC using vector displacement maps. And its unique to 3DC, afaik no other 3d painter can do it. We need to make topic in modo forums, i think that many modo users would be interested. Yes, 3Dc can read 32 Bits maps from Zbrush. The next step for Andrew is to implement (if possible) vector displacement for Pens and strips 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Ztreem Posted May 9, 2008 Member Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 Of course possible. You can do it now in sculpt mode (Drag with pen) Seems that we been able to sculp like that since it was called 3DBrush, I've just havn't played enough with it. I think it was not working very well because I tested it on a too low carcass model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advanced Member rimasson Posted May 9, 2008 Advanced Member Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 One more thing : On the top picture, i first sculpted a plane in sculpt mode, then draw a stroke with the pen tool. ( the purple stroke). This stroke is perpendicular to the sculped surface. On the bottom pic, i imported a vector displacement map, then draw another stroke. This stroke is not perpendicular to the actual surface, but to the surface before i imported the vector disp. Is it a bug ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Shpagin Posted May 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 One more thing :On the top picture, i first sculpted a plane in sculpt mode, then draw a stroke with the pen tool. ( the purple stroke). This stroke is perpendicular to the sculped surface. On the bottom pic, i imported a vector displacement map, then draw another stroke. This stroke is not perpendicular to the actual surface, but to the surface before i imported the vector disp. Is it a bug ? This is a bug. I will fix it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Featured Comment Andrew Shpagin Posted May 9, 2008 Author Featured Comment Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 I have updated the link. Now VD can be exported/imported as zero based. Several bugs was fixed. Version identifier - 3.09 BETA3B+ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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