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Pose Tool feature request


fuzzzzzz
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Yeah, I was being serious when I said that there should be two different tools.

The current Pose Tool in 3D-Coat is really great for modeling. You can use it to make extrusions, insets, for beveling, for bending things, twisting things, etc. It is a very nice tool for blocking out hard surface objects. You can even build a base character mesh using only the Pose Tool!

So therefore, I think the current Pose Tool should be kept, but it should be renamed to Deform (to better describe its purpose).

But for posing a character, the current Pose Tool is not very good.

1. The gradient falloffs need to be improved so they will work nicely at the joints of a character.

2. The deformation needs to be more tightly restricted to where the selection meets the unselected area. Right now some deformation still occurs in areas where the user doesn't want it, which then requires quite a bit of difficult tweaking to get it to behave as intended.

So, the current Pose Tool should be kept, but renamed Deform, and then Andrew should make a brand new intuitive tool for quick posing characters, and call that new one the Pose Tool.

I agree with this 100%. The Pose tool was decent for basic posing tasks early on, but it still leaves a lot to be desired. In my opinion, a short term solution...until Andrew can implement a new Pose/Rigging tool from scratch...is again, to all the user to set however many control points they need along a given axis and allow the user to pre-shape the lattice with more control. Right now you still have the big freaking rectangle and you can only scale/rotate and move it...can't conform it to the object very well. Also add a much stronger "Smooth Selection" and a slider to grow or shrink the selected area.

 

These few things would really do the trick, and people would be surprised how well it deforms, with this added control.

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Considering all the feedback from the topic since i got reported pose tool as a problem for character posing, the tool may be not exactly what people expect for that tool.
i think that we could regroup our needs with the next v4.5 in different sections (workflow breaker, bugs, and features requests that can't be apply for the 4.x life cycle).
 

The tools that make 3dcoat confortable with thing that the app might be done for, and posing is into that category  > "workflow breaker".
Who want to wait for v5 of 3dcoat to work with an acceptable pose tool ? I don't ;x or it would means we have a year or more to wait for such of solution.
This is my opinion.

ITs clear now that we have two different Tools, the current pose tool should be renamed, as curve profiler or lofter)
The masking should be something that we could create on the side in 3d coat, and we could use in combo with the renamed pose tool, the future pose tool , and that could be use with the other sculpting tools.
So we could have a mask made out of that tool, and then use the lattice , with the current fdd box strickness gradient, sure we need to be able to customize the lattice and edit the point /edges/face before to start to deform the unmasked area of the model. the problem with lattice is that we can't store them to go back on them later and edit them. end that workflow would not help to save your time.

But this could not be good enough to work in 3dcoat as an acceptable pose tool, i mean it would be damageable to not being capable to restore a pose we made previously. Or if we can have more than just one lattice in that mode , but that could become harder to have a good visibility in the veiwport.
We really need a method to store these pose and being able to export them all as blendshapes/ morph to use into our favorite animation software.
Don't forget that a bone structure in Zbrush is not conform that a rig you make to animate your character. If you watch the first video i posted, you notice that the author of the tutorial add many more bone for the hips, the chest, and the butt of the women character.
all this would be unnecessary into 3Ds lightwave or maya, all these additional bones are there just to get a better control on the mesh deformations.

Now if we get such of bone system to control the character pose, we could also want to save them as preset just to save some time, and just have to adjust the bones positions to fit our new character proportions.
 

The method where you use the retopo mesh with bones to handle the pose, is not a could idea, no body is creating the bone structure at this point of the production, that could be a feature but i don't think this would help again to save time doing such of posing tasks.

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Shouldn't all this pose tool talk be in its own thread (since its really starting to crowd up this one, which is mostly focused on PBR/Paint)?

And then also have a Trello card made once everyones decided what they want from a new pose tool (or changes to the existing one) for everyone to vote on.

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If the users posting pose tool request agree, i can move all the related post to a new thread, no problem.

 

just give me the order to do it.

 

we should before wait for Andrew to take a decision on what can be done for 4.5 ( pbr) and then if he could insert an iteration ( 4.6 ) to not let 4.x users without a proper tool for making character posing.

 

Ok, I may pay serious attention on Pose tool to be used easily for anatimical posing, but seems can't start big changes there.... I am trying to do only small tweaks.

But if you have idea how to make small and easy change that will do life 3x easier - I will gladly do that right now.

 

I suggest that Andrew do a little fix that AbnRanger talk about, let user modify the lattice points/edges/polygons, before to apply any deformation. that could be a right walkaround for 4.5 iteration.

So if andrew is ok with my proposition to add a 4.6 version with a transformed pose tool with some suggestions we already made on that topic. It would be perfect for me :)

 

Like the post if you agree with me :)

Edited by fuzzzzzz
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@Carlosan, it would be cool if we can choose the number of subdivision of the lattice, 2*4 and 4*4 are not enough to be use on long Tail or long necks like for dinosaurs models.

For instance, It would let the user to create a 2x16 lattice and than save the lattice when we save the current selection in pose tool.

 

EdIt :

There is two crucial points

The gizmo location should be saved if we enter again in lattice mode to edit the lattice , cause it reset everytime to the initial position.

 

3217d89748.png

 

I am no able to change the position of this gizmo , that make the position harder really :/

 

For instance when I use the lattice to pose the thigh of my character, i must to return on the "move only lattice" mode, to adjust the lattice sudivision with the elbow and the ankle ,  but it reset the location of the gizmo, that weird and you continue to lost a lot of time to replace it properly <when you are not happy with the deformation you had just applied,

 

I suggest another tweak that could increase a gain of time,  would make us consists with the gizmo to rotate at the same time with the lattice

 

so it would be great to have an option that store correctly the new location of the gizmo, and with the capacity to rotate the gizmo on consequences, what ever the type of gizmo is used, ( so not only with th lattice but also with the secondary type of gizmo (the red one).

Edited by fuzzzzzz
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0000469: Additional Pose tool Freeform option (Voxel and Surface mode) and Curve tool deform ability.

 

Trello roadmap cards are helping well

 

but... if there isnt trello card counting... the development plan follow the internal agenda

 

Community: choice is on your side. Please take your time and vote.

 

TY all

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@Carlosan, it would be cool if we can choose the number of subdivision of the lattice, 2*4 and 4*4 are not enough to be use on long Tail or long necks like for dinosaurs models.

For instance, It would let the user to create a 2x16 lattice and than save the lattice when we save the current selection in pose tool.

 

EdIt :

There is two crucial points

The gizmo location should be saved if we enter again in lattice mode to edit the lattice , cause it reset everytime to the initial position.

 

3217d89748.png

 

I am no able to change the position of this gizmo , that make the position harder really :/

 

For instance when I use the lattice to pose the thigh of my character, i must to return on the "move only lattice" mode, to adjust the lattice sudivision with the elbow and the ankle ,  but it reset the location of the gizmo, that weird and you continue to lost a lot of time to replace it properly <when you are not happy with the deformation you had just applied,

 

I suggest another tweak that could increase a gain of time,  would make us consists with the gizmo to rotate at the same time with the lattice

 

so it would be great to have an option that store correctly the new location of the gizmo, and with the capacity to rotate the gizmo on consequences, what ever the type of gizmo is used, ( so not only with th lattice but also with the secondary type of gizmo (the red one).

I'm going to tell you right now, that the type of deformation you are trying to do, at the top of the thigh and buttocks area....that's always problematic for even high-end rigging systems, you will see in Maya, 3ds Max, XSI, etc. In fact, you have to use special tools to augment the rig to handle these trouble spots. The Pose tool is not as bad as it seems you are making it out to be, but it's not really been given the attention it has needed, either.

 

Some of these things I requested of Andrew multiple times and even while he was working on the Pose tool and it never got done. This is why I have long suggested that Andrew go room by room and refine/enhance the tools there....give Beta users notice before he moves on, and ask members to please hold off feature requests for other rooms while he is still working in a given area. Otherwise, this happens. Tools get half done, because he already moves on to another toolset and never finishing the one he left. There has to be a more orderly way to approach it.

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...and to be honest, before Andrew embarks on a new Pose system, there are TONS of major feature requests it would jump in front of. Requests that have been sitting on Mantis for long periods of time, and members here have been waiting and waiting and waiting patiently....sometimes for years. So, please keep that in consideration when asking for completely new major features...like a rigging/transpose system in 3D Coat. If adds the few smaller pose tools additions mentioned here, that should work pretty well in the mean time.

 

For example, Sculpt layers has been requested for some time now, and seeing that it is a commonly/frequently used tool in both ZBrush and Mudbox, it is probably the one last missing element in the sculpt room, that keeps users coming from those applications from using 3D Coat to sculpt with...despite 3D Coat being the only one among them with a toolset like LiveClay.

 

I'd much rather see that added before a new Pose/Rigging tool. But that is just my 2 cents worth.

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....so, we probably should hold off on this until he can finish the PBR stuff. It's the bouncing around back and forth that leaves tools half done. We don't want the PBR work to end up that way, do we?

 

This. So much, this.

 

Seriously, we're finally having real progress made in the paint room after years of waiting, but whenever people start banging the war drum like this for completely unrelated features it causes nothing but misdirection.

You want a new pose tool so bad; fine, vote for it on Trello to let your voice be heard like the rest of us. But for the time being, the focus is on PBR, and after that -probably- layer masks (Shortly before PBR work began Andrew did promise it after all).

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Between Mantis, Trello, and these forums, I really don't think we need more ways to report issues and make requests.

 

That said, Mantis is a complete mess. There are currently 693 open issues on there, that's a hell of a lot. Personally I think the whole thing should be wiped and started over, keeping only those linked to Trello requests, or which are specifically asked to be kept by users over a grace period before said wipe.

 

Yeah, I hear ya.  That's part of the reason I stopped reporting there.  I care enough to report issues, but I also care enough about my own time not to keep doing it over and over and also inputting the same, unchanged info each time.  I know that Andrew and his team are working hard, so I have no complaints there, at all.  I don't think the feedback system (mantis) is worthwhile.  Forums are much more desirable, but then still don't capture the necessary info a developer needs.  Having a built-in system would be pretty simple as the system info and versioning is already captured during installation and can be just as easily updated when you need to report an error.  It could even be a stand-alone little app in the directory, for when you have crashes.  All I require is a textbox to put feedback into.  Everything else is either redundant and/or time-consuming from a user perspective.  I'm happy to test things.  Reporting could be easier.

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....so, we probably should hold off on this until he can finish the PBR stuff. It's the bouncing around back and forth that leaves tools half done. We don't want the PBR work to end up that way, do we?

 

for sure we want PBR,

..but i didn't expected Andrew to respond to the feedback I had shared about that pose tool, but he did, and he asked for a solution , and

it seems that many people has reacted about that real lack in 3dcoat, transpose tool was shipped with ZB 3.0 if i remember well, the tool has not evolved a lot since it has been created.

PBR will not being fully built in few month and then let it go for ten year more without any viewport improvements, time is necessary for the tool to growth in maturity , pbr will not escape from this rule.

 

We could try to launch a funny challenge that only allow people to give a posture with the manequin model  without allowing the user to use any ot the sculpting tools, that would be somehow funny, but it would be also tragic :/

This is the point I am trying to express, no need to launch any event like that, but it some how also "not really acceptable" that we can't do such of tasks with the cost of the professional license.

 

This. So much, this.

 

Seriously, we're finally having real progress made in the paint room after years of waiting, but whenever people start banging the war drum like this for completely unrelated features it causes nothing but misdirection.

You want a new pose tool so bad; fine, vote for it on Trello to let your voice be heard like the rest of us. But for the time being, the focus is on PBR, and after that -probably- layer masks (Shortly before PBR work began Andrew did promise it after all).

 

Last point, i don't think this topic is only dedicated to PBR, the topic is open to the 4.5 development, now only Andrew knows what will be part of this version, and optionally he is the only one that could define if my request is legit or not.

Sorry if this suggestion, was not welcome at that point of the development, but as customer i was free to give my personal feedback. and trello card wasn't available for vote. I am not starting to bang the war drum with unrelated  feature, i asked for a tweak not a new feature at that point, I didn't know that many people go to enter into that "unrelated" discussion , how could i had known for this?  So why should i had created a request on a separated topic because I didn't know the request would be as popular as it has been ?

 

I wanted to transform the full sized Images  into simple urls, but i can't to edit my older posts.

 

Carlosan, can you split the topic and create one apart of  4.5 ?

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for sure we want PBR,

..but i didn't expected Andrew to respond to the feedback I had shared about that pose tool, but he did, and he asked for a solution , and

it seems that many people has reacted about that real lack in 3dcoat, transpose tool was shipped with ZB 3.0 if i remember well, the tool has not evolved a lot since it has been created.

PBR will not being fully built in few month and then let it go for ten year more without any viewport improvements, time is necessary for the tool to growth in maturity , pbr will not escape from this rule.

 

We could try to launch a funny challenge that only allow people to give a posture with the manequin model  without allowing the user to use any ot the sculpting tools, that would be somehow funny, but it would be also tragic :/

This is the point I am trying to express, no need to launch any event like that, but it some how also "not really acceptable" that we can't do such of tasks with the cost of the professional license.

 

 

Last point, i don't think this topic is only dedicated to PBR, the topic is open to the 4.5 development, now only Andrew knows what will be part of this version, and optionally he is the only one that could define if my request is legit or not.

Sorry if this suggestion, was not welcome at that point of the development, but as customer i was free to give my personal feedback. and trello card wasn't available for vote. I am not starting to bang the war drum with unrelated  feature, i asked for a tweak not a new feature at that point, I didn't know that many people go to enter into that "unrelated" discussion , how could i had known for this?  So why should i had created a request on a separated topic because I didn't know the request would be as popular as it has been ?

 

I wanted to transform the full sized Images  into simple urls, but i can't to edit my older posts.

 

Carlosan, can you split the topic and create one apart of  4.5 ?

Not saying it isn't a worth request, just not very timely, because many of us know from experience, once Andrew leaves a new tool he is working on, to something entirely different, what you are left with is a bunch of half-done tools because the community is always asking for different things all over the place and requesting it as if it's a sudden emergency. There needs to be some sort of organization to what Andrew is working on and what requests are heeded in that time segment. There are a bunch of tools in the Retopo Room and Sculpt room I have long been waiting on and feel are just as urgent as this...but I try to hold off as long as I can until Andrew gets back to working in that part of the application.

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And right now, he's been working on PBR. If you want to make sure PBR is half-baked then by all means, keep pushing the urgency of this Pose tool request.

I don't think we have anything to worry about, Don. Andrew seems to define his priorities pretty well. :)
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I don't think we have anything to worry about, Don. Andrew seems to define his priorities pretty well. :)

Not really....and it's not really his fault. I don't know that anyone can when you are simultaneously being pulled in 50 different directions. With a constant daily barrage of requests via e-mail, this forum, Twitter, etc....and those requests are all over the place. This is why I've been saying for years that Andrew should take a more organized, systematic approach, so he he's not having to run back and forth from room to room. But focus on one at a time...and make a public statement that he is going to be working on a certain toolset or workspace and for users to keep their current requests confined to that area.

 

I don't know how he keeps his sanity. It's why I think a more focused approach is the only way to keep him from getting burned out, mentally.

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Yesterday I had a dream...

 

Smod3DC_exp0.jpg

 

Posing with soft transition is impossible on high res mesh. You need to draw impossibly long lines to get a somewhat broad enough gradient for smooth transition :/

A simple multiplier (default 1) would do the trick, instead of pressing x100 a button (which after a while doesn't seem to do much anyway)

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Yesterday I had a dream...

 

Smod3DC_exp0.jpg

 

Posing with soft transition is impossible on high res mesh. You need to draw impossibly long lines to get a somewhat broad enough gradient for smooth transition :/

A simple multiplier (default 1) would do the trick, instead of pressing x100 a button (which after a while doesn't seem to do much anyway)

 

 

This would be awesome!  With realtime visual feedback for the affected area of course

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Yesterday I had a dream...

 

Smod3DC_exp0.jpg

 

Posing with soft transition is impossible on high res mesh. You need to draw impossibly long lines to get a somewhat broad enough gradient for smooth transition :/

A simple multiplier (default 1) would do the trick, instead of pressing x100 a button (which after a while doesn't seem to do much anyway)

We need a slider that allows the user to dial up or down the falloff distance from the selection. You can do that in 3ds Max, with Soft Selection, and that's effectively what the Pose tool utilizes...gradient/soft selections

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