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3D-Coat 3.7 updates thread


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yeah fixes and then once 4v comes out it's taken away.

Also Abnranger If this is true "All point updates have been (over 4yrs now...that's a lot of free updates)" how are they free if they are taken away at given date.

Maybe i don't understand what he means.

Do you expect you should get v4 features for free?.Im still surprised at how ungrateful people can be sometimes.Very sad, :(

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Do you expect you should get v4 features for free?.Im still surprised at how ungrateful people can be sometimes.Very sad, :(

who the F said anything about getting V4 Free. what i want is not to lose my V3 point updates. If V3 has V4 features, that's not the users responsibility to monitor.

These V3.point wherever we are at , are for v3.x.x so which version am i stuck with then is what i want to know.

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If V3 has V4 features, that's not the users responsibility to monitor.

3.7 is beta testing of V4 features....I think you should read first page of this thread before being rude...

You still had 3.5 for free so stop the whinning...

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3.7 is beta testing of V4 features....I think you should read first page of this thread before being rude...

You still had 3.5 for free so stop the whinning...

if

that's how it read before. they where updates for V3 and dude shut your trap. i can whine all i want, that's what built this thing we call the internet. your the rude one to me and i have no problem with it. if ypu don't want to shut it, that fine. more then free to keep it coming .

I asked a question and stated, what i think is wrong. If I'm wrong then that's fine i'm happy to sell my copy then. i really don't care if this how things will be.

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These V3.point wherever we are at , are for v3.x.x so which version am i stuck with then is what i want to know.

Hmmm.....I agree with you.It is not clear as 3.7.08B is still downloadable as latest stable release on main site.

Will 3.7.08B still force you to upgrade? Thats a good question,and of course that would not be fair.

Andrew,Greg ?Any words on this?

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Do you expect you should get v4 features for free?.Im still surprised at how ungrateful people can be sometimes.Very sad, :(

Maybe I am misreading but the very last paragraph in his statement he seems to be concerned if V3 will be non working and if he is forced to move to V4 after just getting V3.

On a separate note, Thank you very much for your hard work and dedication Pilgway! I definitely have plans of venturing to V4 as this is the most intuitive/ logical sculpting program I have used. I also really like the new face extrude option you have in your retopo set. By chance did you ever find/ solve the issue in LC that creates lots of holes in your model?

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I definitely have plans of venturing to V4 as this is the most intuitive/ logical sculpting program I have used

Same here.

I asked a question and stated, what i think is wrong. If I'm wrong then that's fine i'm happy to sell my copy then. i really don't care if this how things will be.

Perfect how much ?

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yeah fixes and then once 4v comes out it's taken away.

Also Abnranger If this is true "All point updates have been (over 4yrs now...that's a lot of free updates)" how are they free if they are taken away at given date.

Maybe i don't understand what he means.

All i know is when i upgraded from V2 to V3 i wasn't forced and i didn't lose any updates. i upgraded when i was ready and again i lose any point updates. i just didn't get any of v3 things. So it just seems wrong now. Unless he's going to release a stable V3 with point released updates minus the v4 Beta things then i'm down with that. If not then anyone want to buy my copy of V3... only available after i know what's going on. hehe

Your aren't going to lose any builds up to this point. From what I understand, and from the sound of the statement, Andrew is just warning folks that public release of beta builds will stop on that date, and after that comes V4. Any subsequent builds will require a V4 license. So, he is just giving users a few months advanced warning.

I'm sure he will clarify things shortly.

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AbnRanger it's still not really ok. I understand 3.x beta are technical preview of v4 features, but they also contain important bug fixes. And I mean fixes for functions in 3.7 (so from the 3.x cycle).

I understand the concerns of some folk here about losing access to fixed builds for the functions they use. I also understand that Andrew wants to keep functions for 4.0.

I'll buy 4.x if the polishing continues as it is since a few release anyway but I understand the concern of users without the means to buy the 4.x update while all they ask is solid 3.x functions which is for some of them only available in point releases.

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I just noticed this change "WARNING! Beta versions are limited in time to 10 Dec 2012. Then you will need to move to upcoming V4 when was this added and it kind feel wrong . thought all point updated where just that point updates with some beta some bug fixes.

I was about to make the same observation myself (phew lucky I did'nt ) :)

I seem to recall there was a kind of cutoff point around 3.7.12D ? cant remember exactly

Any way it would be better to start renaming payable upgrade versions from the beginning

as previously suggested (v4.xxx).

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Btw I understand the concept of "sold as is", but going this way also means users will have the right to ask "more intensively" what can appear to be "due functionality". You have to think about that too, we had some cases of people asking kinda harshly about new functionalities (so not due), but imagine the same kind of people with what is advertised as a feature but doesn't work properly. Imho this is a dangerous path.

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Time limitation is applied sice 3.7.14. There is relatively stable 3.7.08B that is widely used.

Fine for me, now what about Greg pushing new users to test the latest betas for fixed bugs ? Do those users will get a free 4.x update when they find out that 3.x cycle stable release don't contains said bug fixes ? For 3.x buyers it's not really an issue, but for those still undecided in trial mode it's kinda edgy.

I'm not here to float your boat Andrew (and I don't pretend to know how) but the will to upgrade shouldn't come from some time limitation but from bug fixes and awesome new features. People rarely upgrade because they want to be able to use the program again (they'll most likely go to underground sites to fix this problem :/), they pay because the new version is so much better than the older one.

(I also imagine what'll happen with people on deadline around december using most reliable version in beta cycle, and falling short of time because the 4x release is delayed or something like that. Upgrade on a large array of machine is a pain.)

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The possible solution is turning off some very new features in the manner of "Show beta tools" after given date without turning off everything.

But I agree, following development is main reason to buy V4, not time limitation. I will consider how I may improve policy in this way, so please don't worry.

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The possible solution is turning off new features in the manner of "Show beta tools" after given date without turning off everything.

This would require extra effort from you but with a clear warning of what is deactivated (before it's deactivated !) this should be fair imo. Besides putting that in place right now would save you the trouble of explaining it every new cycle.

And next time don't put the time restriction visible like that, now people will expect something quickly after that... bad for business ;) (it's noble of you though)

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I think that what may be turned off is what essentially belongs to V4:

- iconic UI.

- Edit in photoshop with scaling

- beta tools

- retopo extrude

- vertex color painting

That seems fair, IMHO. I think there were some other big features I recall that you implemented, but those are the big ones I can remember at the moment.

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I am definitiely going to buy the upgrade because I love 3D-Coat!

However, I think the upgrade should be less expensive than a brand new license. This will encourage current users to continue using the software.

I really like being able to download all of the beta builds and I hope this will continue in the future, but I agree that it should be made very clear (in advance) that users are not buying the beta builds when they buy a license.

Personally I did not know this was the case until reading about it right now.

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I am definitiely going to buy the upgrade because I love 3D-Coat!

However, I think the upgrade should be less expensive than a brand new license. This will encourage current users to continue using the software.

I really like being able to download all of the beta builds and I hope this will continue in the future, but I agree that it should be made very clear (in advance) that users are not buying the beta builds when they buy a license.

Personally I did not know this was the case until reading about it right now.

This wasn't the case until recently, but I think the problem comes because there wasn't a clear separation between new features (v4) and current cycle bugfixes.

In many software development like 3dcoat, time limits exist and aren't publicly declared, but there are also point bugfixes updates which are not limited in time and tech preview updates which come with the price of time limitation.

In 3dcoat, thanks to Andrews generosity we get to see a glimpse of the future of 3dcoat with current cycle bugfixes. This both a nice thing for the user but can lead to confusing situation as the current one.

Now since Andrew doesn't have the time or the manpower to release two kind of updates, he needs to make it clear what's current cycle and what's not.

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I think that what may be turned off is what essentially belongs to V4:

- iconic UI.

- Edit in photoshop with scaling

- beta tools

- retopo extrude

- vertex color painting

I understand the rationale for this, but at the end of the day, it still is a bit like trying to get the toothpaste back into the bottle. As long as the builds have a 3.7.xx nomenclature, users expect that everything is still part of the V3 cycle. Surely you don't want to be delivering new features and without advanced notification, tell them you are taking those back. Most of us understand that many of these features were aimed to be in the V4 release, but even I didn't expect to see any of them disabled after a time limit.

This is why I suggested to Stas that shortly before the official release, perhaps stop supplying OPEN BETA builds and test everything thereafter within a small internal Beta team. With Raul coming back, I expect there will be enough "goodies" (ie, LiveClay and general sculpting improvements) in the next few months, to release in V4, that will compel the average user to upgrade. So, maybe just focus on bugfixing for a final, solid 3.7.xx, so users like Beat don't feel cheated regarding stability, and then whatever feature additions you have from this point on....withhold from public release or call it V4 (RC) Release Candidate and have a warning that the new additions therein are time limited.

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That's the best case scenario. In fact imo this is what users are expecting. I'm betting no one would even be speaking about this if the current 3.x cycle was rock solid :)

Like AbnRanger says: release a really stable version at some point before going into 4, freeze new function additions if you have to, but the 3.x tools should work with no hitches. Even if it takes a few months to get it right asking for users feedback on it. Reporting new users to this build if bugs are found, so that at the end of the 3.x cycle we have a time unlimited but real stable release to go to.

As for 4, when the 4.0 release is done, please, slow down developpment. You did a great job with 3.0 it has grown into something nothing short of amazing but you went too fast and that's why we're having those discussion. I know how much fun is adding features during software development, but going as quickly as you did is hurting the development and the app maturation.

You're at the point where you're as advanced as the competition all you need is refining the processes and global ergonomic/ideas behind the use of the software. You do not need to add a ton more things to please your customers, just make it easier to use and integrate the options that are lacking into the current tools.

That's an example: When you felt a function was missing a part of the application, or when users were requesting a functionality that was lacking, you went and created a new menu entry or a new tool. You could in most case have added said functionality into already existing tools just by adding contextual activation or simply changing ui items a bit to allow toggle/selection options. I'm pretty sure we can adress those by reorganizing the ui but the Ui overhaul probably could have waited 4.5 if you took a bit more time and tried to find more contextual/intuitive way to add new functions. I'm not saying you did wrong, just that you did too fast :) (invert mirror in retopo room is a good example: why not make the first face drawn facing the camera, and thus inverting faces on the opposite x ?, another option that could've been avoided and is still confusing new users because they are expecting a face creation that doesn't appear)

A lot of users here mentioned Silo when talking about changing the retopo room into a modeler, that's no coincidence: silo is using contextual tool activation all the time ! They didn't have much tools, but the small amount they had they crammed everything in it by using contextual activation. The result is a powerful modeler that can do almost everything other modelers can do with 3x less tools and thus x3 easier to learn and use :)

Your move with assigning different tool to modifiers keys was a smart one, this is the kind of thing we need, it speed up the workflow greatly !

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This is why I suggested to Stas that shortly before the official release, perhaps stop supplying OPEN BETA builds and test everything thereafter within a small internal Beta team. With Raul coming back, I expect there will be enough "goodies" (ie, LiveClay and general sculpting improvements) in the next few months, to release in V4, that will compel the average user to upgrade. So, maybe just focus on bugfixing for a final, solid 3.7.xx, so users like Beat don't feel cheated regarding stability, and then whatever feature additions you have from this point on....withhold from public release or call it V4 (RC) Release Candidate and have a warning that the new additions therein are time limited.

This is just not possible because 3DC has 1000nds of tools and options and it is absolutely impossible to check all combinations and workflows withis small staff. Community participation is ESSENTIAL part of 3DC development, growth and stabilization. It is useful for all - for peoples who are getting fresh featres and bugfixes and us - for feedback.

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This is just not possible because 3DC has 1000nds of tools and options and it is absolutely impossible to check all combinations and workflows withis small staff. Community participation is ESSENTIAL part of 3DC development, growth and stabilization. It is useful for all - for peoples who are getting fresh featres and bugfixes and us - for feedback.

Yes, This is understandable. The community may be essential, but it is also a privilege to the community. How many creations have already been made with the use of the beta tools? Created free of charge? Yes!.

Just an idea, perhaps in future, you could have the option to pre - order for the next version at a certain stage of development of the next version. Pre - order customers are given a pre - determined price, which could be the tricky part, but pre - order customers & only pre - order customers are able to use beta builds. Many game dev companies do this for add-ons / extensions to games. Customers that originally purchased the game and like it, pretty much know they will like the add-on and are all the more keen to beta test it and have input to ensure that they will.

Really its not a whole lot different to how it is now. Not for me at least, I would have pre - ordered and will absolutely be purchasing V4. The pre - order thing is just a formality really but everyone knows where they stand straight up.

Keep up the Great work Andrew and thank you for the privilege.

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Yes, This is understandable. The community may be essential, but it is also a privilege to the community. How many creations have already been made with the use of the beta tools? Created free of charge? Yes!.

Just an idea, perhaps in future, you could have the option to pre - order for the next version at a certain stage of development of the next version. Pre - order customers are given a pre - determined price, which could be the tricky part, but pre - order customers & only pre - order customers are able to use beta builds. Many game dev companies do this for add-ons / extensions to games. Customers that originally purchased the game and like it, pretty much know they will like the add-on and are all the more keen to beta test it and have input to ensure that they will.

Really its not a whole lot different to how it is now. Not for me at least, I would have pre - ordered and will absolutely be purchasing V4. The pre - order thing is just a formality really but everyone knows where they stand straight up.

Keep up the Great work Andrew and thank you for the privilege.

Yes do a pre-order system great idea ,count me in.

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Btw Andrew, it didn't happen in 3.7.17b3 but freezing is back on stacked shortcut in presets... Calling c (associated to mud 2 and liveclay presets) multiple time freeze the software :/

It's DEFINITELY not as bad as it was but it's still there but only on stacked shortcuts, the other are working fine.

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Andrew, thank you so much for the Collada-Import. I was waiting eagerly for it, and now i can finally retopo my old sketchup-Models.

(i noticed that i have to explode my SketchUp models first, before exporting as Collada, otherwise 3DC will loaf only parts of the model)

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