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3D-Coat 3.7 updates thread


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How does this feel?

post-1266-0-45106100-1339106844_thumb.pn

I think the fill icon should have one or two of the carve lines unfilled or only slightly filled. I think this icon with the text "Fill" under it relieves some of the ambiguity but the image alone isn't as informative as it could be. Everything else is looking nice.

On a completly different topic, is there anyway we could change the icon size for the main toolbar. It was kind of jarring for me not having the whole list of tools visiable and having to collapse sections to navigate down the list and I have 1200x1600 display. I'm not saying they have to be hard coded as smaller but maybe an option to adjust the size in the preferences?

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Definitely should be able to set size of them via some preference I think. I'd very much like to see separate instance for menu, quick panel (with separate pref for quick access icons). Icons can help with accessibility and equally this type of icon offers nothing if too small. I think maybe if we have the icons going smaller or removed maybe maybe a 64x64 icon in the tool tip? With the description??

I do understand though the need for accurate resizing of both the icon for quality and the menus size for uniformity.

Also some people prefer text only. but I feel an the option for icons or text in the quick panel should be separate and not tied to the text only menus. Some people might like text buttons but find icons helpful in the quick panel.

Yep borders need re addressing would either to be hard coded and offer less tweaking or give user access to everything with all separate elements for a completely customisable UI. Things are shared and names could be better, we can work on that.

Yes drop shadow around viewport is a separate element, so could be turned off.

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Icons can help with accessibility and equally this type of icon offers nothing if too small. I think maybe if we have the icons going smaller or removed maybe maybe a 64x64 icon in the tool tip? With the description??

+1

I was thinking that right after I hit the post button, Having the icon bigger in the tooltip would be very usefull. We get the smaller size for the text button to save screen space and the tool tip icon so we can see what the tool is doing. I probably wont spend that much time in the main toolbar once I get some presets setup :wub:

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Oh hey, just realized you can already turn off the icons on the side tool bar in the voxel room

by using a switch located just to the left of the "E" panel button. 5 different choices, Sweet!

There should definitely be similar but separate options for the quick access panel

.

Personally I prefer text only, though I am curious about how that would work with the quick panel presets

-Jeff

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You can change the size of layout of the icons or go back to text for your brushes by clicking the little circle surrounded by a square next to the big T... Right now you get 5 different layouts to choose from.

Picture included.

LJB, yes you are on the right track for the icons looking better, still maybe a litte more shadow to help bring the forms out.

After doing a little testing it looks like now the LiveClay brush with the new brush routine can be used for stamping details. I will do more testing tommorrow...

Thanks guys for taking the time to work on the UI, congrats... :drinks:

Looking forward to the fine tuning...

@ run, we posted just about the same time about the same subject... B)

post-518-0-28500000-1339116468_thumb.png

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Hi Geo!

Yes if you have this build installed with another older build (Pre 3.7.12), that older build will have some very different UI portions. I didn't experience any weirdness as far as functionality goes, simply and only UI elements were different. I can't say that you wont have any functionality problems, as I didn't fully explore everything. :)

Ah that is not good. I'll wait for an official stable version before installing this new revamped 3dc gui. Can't risk destroying an older build right now.

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This a PC users only thread?

OK, I can wait some months for a mac version, the longer it takes the better it will be.

Meanwhile, I prefer icons like this grab from blender. In fact, I find it one of the best around.

post-2454-0-13490000-1339151322_thumb.jp

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No aggressiveness Beat! As I said, the longer it takes the better it will be.

Just being in the middle of something that 3dc can help a lot.

BTW, blender/cycles can render 3dc vertex painting and even produce more complicated and interesting blended texturing via attribute node.

Your suggestion about icons has been noted though. Thnx for the constructive input

Yeah, the idea of not showing a full sphere but just a part of it, is very tasty.

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Michalis:

I agree with your taste in icons. The Blender icons are definitely quite readable and descriptive. I submitted icons and other interface elements, that I worked on for weeks - very similar to the Blender style of sculpting icon - to Andrew and Javis - and others saw them as well.

They were not, generally, well received.

The fact that there are so few icons in the Blender sculpting interface corresponds to the general realization that you don't need 100 sculpting tools to make good art, and to make it efficiently. I'll hold to that position, forever. The fewer, more powerful tools at your disposal, the better the overall sculpting experience will be. The more spartan the interface, the more pleasurable the sculpting experience will be.

Probably what needs to occur, since all this trouble is being taken to revamp the interface, is the means for users to insert their own custom icons - (icons are entirely subjective, I believe). I honestly cannot tell, by looking, what the current set of icons is describing. It's that subjective.

So, just for reference purposes, here are the changes that I proposed to the interface, which correspond to the "spartan" philosophy:

Greg Smith

post-962-0-05246300-1339163282_thumb.png

post-962-0-64532600-1339163312_thumb.png

post-962-0-03800200-1339163342_thumb.png

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Beatkitano:

I don't know if it was in the latest UI thread or not, but I definitely presented the graphics for the main interface ideas to many users, (I'm pretty sure it was in the "Inspire the Developers" thread).

You know, the one where Phil said, "I hate it - it looks just like the Sculptris interface" (I paraphrase). So, maybe you just didn't see the posts I made. Most viewers made no public comment at all.

In private, I can tell you, Javis liked most of the suggestions - but his big push was for a Modo-like hierarchical tree display, and for the simplification and consolidation of the menus.

Andrew's only remark to me was, "Strange".

Anyway, here they are again - right in plain sight.

Greg Smith

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Greg,your icons are interesting but I find they look too much like small actual sculpts which makes them hard to read

and the shading is pretty dark in the lowerhalf of the icons makes it even more distracting,i find LJB icons much clearer and easier to read.

I don't think your icons look anything like Sculptris tough.It was cool of you taking time to make those.

But I also agree with Michalis I think Blender icons are the best out there regarding the size,the shading,

the demonstrated strokes,the snapshot angle...well,everything.

But in all,I think what we have right now is excellent and people seem to like them so far. :)

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Beatkitano:

I don't know who's pointing any fingers, certainly not me. I'm just telling you I did present these ideas, first to Andrew, second to Javis (for feedback) and thirdly on our own public forum (which may have been that exclusive section reserved for the eyes of only a few).

After receiving virtually no interest from Andre and passive, negative or no response from those of the community who were involved, I abandoned my pursuit for drastic change to the interface.

But, all's well that ends well - nothing is set in stone.

I'd also appreciate feedback on the "bottom right row" of "slider" icons. I think they are clear, and open up a great deal of interface space, while providing all the same functionality of the "top row", textual sliders:

Greg Smith

post-962-0-91859200-1339167272_thumb.png

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So if I understand, there's a secret board inside the private board. Ok. It's motivating for posting mockups there (may explain the slow pace in the last few months though) !

And about pointing fingers, well coming with a mockup here on public (not an issue in itself !) and saying I did something you appreciate michalis, but it got refused because I published it an noone like it. It's a bit like pointing fingers to me. But whatever.

And I'll make this post a bit more constructive about your attached picture:

Here's what has been said on the not secret part of the private board with a similar concept from Geothefaust(which you should have seen !):

Active%20Tool%20Indicator%20v3.jpg

And the comments:

LJB - "In All honesty it would be easier on the eye to run them down the Side rather than across the top as well. Like beats says Breaking the icons into separate Icons makes it Far easier to read than having them Clustered together. Also give a definitive area to click on to open the respective menus, Making tool tip placement easier and more convenient."

Me - "While I like visual informations when hiding tool tray, I don't think we should add too much in the viewport, in some case that could be a major problem (sliders for instance: you miss your hotzone, you move your camera). And I can envision problems with bugs while redrawing ui items. And you already have somehow the same functionality with the radius/depth etc popup in windows popup"

Among other things !

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I'd also appreciate feedback on the "bottom right row" of "slider" icons. I think they are clear, and open up a great deal of interface space, while providing all the same functionality of the "top row", textual sliders:

They are cool in term of space saving but there isnt any input fields in your mockup,which are necessary for a lot of users.

Also Im not sure the appearing/disappearing of text/number in your concept is compatible with Ui tools Andrew is currently using.

But it surely saves a great deal of space.

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btw I just went through the new retopo icons...they are great!! :)

(exept maybe Move vertices....which could actually show a moved vertice.)

But Slide edge,collapse,points/ face tools icons ect.. are all really clear and well done.

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Well, it looks like someone presented a few of my "Brush" icons, on the left there. Strange that these were presented without my knowledge or without any authorial credit.

There is basically a split between my philosophical interface leanings and those of most of the rest of the community. It seems that, today, users still want hundreds of tools, hundreds of choices, hundreds of numerical input fields - all for the simple purpose of making entertainment-based computer art.

3DC is not a CAD program and does not need quad precision accuracy to produce entertainment-based 3D art. It does not need the hundreds of tools that it does contain to sculpt, texture and output models and corresponding textures for use elsewhere - in my opinion.

So far, I haven't gotten any feedback from any users who agree with these points. So, the most productive thing I can do, at this point in time, is to just keep my opinions to myself - which I have mostly done.

Not today, unfortunately.

Greg Smith

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If I wanted to be really not friendly I would say you explicitly wanted an ui that could be used on a tablet (Ipad and such). I know there's a market, but I think you greatly misunderstood the biggest part of the people here.

Now about picturing the work being done on the ui just now as "putting everything possible in the ui to make it bloated"... well it's your view, as far I see it, it's actually quite the contrary.

We are trying to make the ui simpler, and also more consistent, not by inventing shiny new icons and removing 50% of the software functionalities in the process but by reworking what's already there but not working conventionaly.

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Well, it looks like someone presented a few of my "Brush" icons, on the left there. Strange that these were presented without my knowledge or without any authorial credit.

There is basically a split between my philosophical interface leanings and those of most of the rest of the community. It seems that, today, users still want hundreds of tools, hundreds of choices, hundreds of numerical input fields - all for the simple purpose of making entertainment-based computer art.

3DC is not a CAD program and does not need quad precision accuracy to produce entertainment-based 3D art. It does not need the hundreds of tools that it does contain to sculpt, texture and output models and corresponding textures for use elsewhere - in my opinion.

So far, I haven't gotten any feedback from any users who agree with these points. So, the most productive thing I can do, at this point in time, is to just keep my opinions to myself - which I have mostly done.

Not today, unfortunately.

Greg Smith

Some people bought 3DCoat licences to make jewelry,some people for videogame,some people for medical/dental stuff,some for pure sculpting...

Without having a gazillion tools some sort of numerical input fields need to be "at least" avaible.

Right now with new preset system you can toss only 3 brushes there if you like,dock it, and hide the default toolbar.What is the problem?

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Beatkitano:

I don't see anything in the interface ideas that I presented that looks like it was designed to be used on an iPad or any tablet-based computer. These concepts were done, completely, specifically with a desktop or laptop computer in mind.

As far as my iconic brush slider interface is concerned - you can simply click on the numerical field below each icon to enter numbers manually (but they are restricted to 3 digits and no decimals, only). Remember, these are "brushes" we are talking about - not precision CAD tools.

Greg Smith

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"I believe iOS cannot be overlooked - for the current set of hardware that runs it, and especially for the next generation of Apple hardware that will be orders of magnitude more powerful and fast.

Our user-base is still composed of more casual users than professional ones. Casual users, according to all trends, are gravitating toward tablet based hardware, (pressure sensitivity is coming), and the desktop and laptop computing platforms are beginning to fall behind in popularity and corresponding sales."

reminds you of anything ? You know what you want, I respect that, but don't pretend we don't get your meaning please.

Now I don't want to polute this thread further, this is getting ridiculous. But please stop playing the victim if your ui mockups didn't convince, all we've done so far as been a concerted effort and we did it while always balancing the pros and cons. I'm done here.

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I presented all of my interface ideas on our public forum long before I ever made the statement you have quoted. Please don't put words in my mouth to express meanings which I never intended - and which are completely, totally out of context.

Greg Smith

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I think the main contention here is to try and Promote Workflow in 3d coat therefore a professional, consistent, and conventional UI is going to be essential here. Greg in all honesty I never saw your icon work here, Never, But then nor did anybody comment on my posts regarding ui changes. However I dont appologise for pushing things either as things got stale. Sorry if you somehow feel cheated. But remember this forum is really quite large place. So Let me crit as I have now seen them. -

i feel they don't capture the Brushes meaning or use. The only one i can actually read as a tool is Flatten.

Personally I don't like flyout menus (my Opinion), and the design is pretty inconsistent with either you mock-up or the current UI. However look at the functionality that you describe in your second post Have we not attained something similar already.

@ Michallis and Artman, I agree with the icons. I feel that they are much more descriptive. I will try and do something similar. I have all the template files here so its pretty simple to zoom in at different closer angle and Thank you, this is the kind of thing we need to be discussing here!

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You know, the one where Phil said, "I hate it - it looks just like the Sculptris interface" (I paraphrase). So, maybe you just didn't see the posts I made. Most viewers made no public comment at all.

Yikes, I hope that's paraphrasing. I don't think I would ever describe someone's work so harshly.

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Updated to 3.7.12E

- Important fix: brushing quality improved - more correct handling of backfaces

- UI improvements - more informative hints with pictures in left panel

- LC extrude clay improved to provide better detalization

- Fixed: hard to select and operate over reference image controls

- Fixed: SHIFT selection not working in pose tool

- Import image as mesh improved - much better stencis mixing. Blob tool got better quality

- Fixed: Painting along curve fixed in voxel tools was not working over transformed volumes. Quality improved a lot too.

- Fixed: a bit shift down when rendering turnables

Mac&Linux of 12E are coming soon too.

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