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Substance Painter Beta 7 Update and Roadmap (YouTube)


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Andrew said he already spoke with Ton about it, so I'm sure Ton would have mentioned the same types of concerns you have...but the question is, did they discuss a means to overcome the obstacles that might crop up? Is Andrew serious about it? We don't know. I think an equally exciting prospect would be to partner with Quixel to incorporate elements of their suite directly in 3D Coat. Plug dDo into the Paint room the same way it is in PS, and have 3Do work in the viewport.

 

I think they might welcome the idea, in order to get a leg up on their chief competitor, Allegorithmic/Substance

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No to cycles engine. Yes to marmoset engine. Or better is to use something like th maya viewport 2.0.

Keeping the consistency with 3dcoat viewport and maya viewport would be killer move.

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http://www.marmoset.co/toolbag/learn/pbr-practice

 

post-10142-0-73704700-1404299757_thumb.j

 

Similar layering functionality can be achieved with applications such as dDo, Mari and Substance Designer.

 

->>>> To add 3DC to this app list must be the goal

--------------------------------------------------------

 

 

I think an equally exciting prospect would be to partner with Quixel to incorporate elements of their suite directly in 3D Coat. Plug dDo into the Paint room the same way it is in PS, and have 3Do work in the viewport.

 

+1

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is there any people here that use 3Dcoat renderer ? (not me) i think that Andrew must to focus on modeling, sculpting and texturing tools, and improveme the paint and voxeltree layer system UI. cycles is not in the scope of what 3dcoat is used for.

about the current layer system, it's not exactly as the layer systeme in photoshop, there are little difference that finally give you a different workflow, i think about how layer masks are linked with paint layers.
I am now trying the layer masking , but probably because i am painting on a voxel object, the mask donot works at all, it was not that hard to understand how it should works, but finally it seems it doesn't.Masking is very important, for tool like Ddo (like th ecolor mat id),Unreal Engine 4 abused of masking technique composed by red, green blue, cyan magenta,yellow.


About PBR, if we get a new rendering and shaders system with some shader dedicated to PBR, first, 3dcoat must to support IBL lightning, include pbr pixel shader that treat how each material get the light scene and at last hand we have the  type of PBR worflow  cause two workflow are available :

Reflectance :

- albedo (metal part are white and color are defined into the specular color channel)
- specular color
- gloss map
- normal map


Metalness :

- albedo : metallic albedo is defined here , instead of specular color(reflectance)
- roughness : equivalent of the gloss map for the reflectance workflow, we can obtain a roughness map by inversing the value, but that not exactly the clean way to it, quixel has no real tool for that, and metalness workflow is a lot of buggy, and there is a lot of complains about the new suite., not sure how SD/SP deal the conversion between metalness > reflectance and reflectance > metalness)
- specular ( no color)
- normal map



Well this already a lot to achieve just hope that Andrew has a good visibility of the future so 3dcoat shoudl survive for the next 5 years, i use 3dcoat as low price alternative to Zbrush for the sculpting, 3dcoat is alway the best app to make retopology, UVs can be done in first instance in 3dcoat and rehandled in any 3d packages for the finitions, baking is generally done with Xnormal, before to be edited with nDo or Substance painter.

The dev team must to stay rational, so before to hope for an integration of any third party renderer it would be great that 3dcoat improve a lot how masking works in 3Dcoat.


Also two big critical problem i met in Voxel room, that i would like to be solve,

1. no way to import any hard surface model in 3Dcoat adn subdivide it with th tools inside 3dcoat, i must to subdivide my model in maya, before to send it in 3dcoat to subdivede and protect the hard edges on my models.

2. put a simple cube in voxel mode, it will ruined all the hard edges, this make me enable to use confortably the voxel room with hard surface modeling.
 

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For visualization purposes there are plenty of render options available, and implementing any one of them could be useful to 3DC users I imagine.

 

PBR however is unique, in that it requires a fundamentally different approach to texturing then the 'classic' diffuse+spec workflow (which is being abandoned by the games industry) that 3DC is currently based around. Lacking PBR support is a major workflow issue; This isn't just a matter of shader incompatibility between 3DC and engines; no matter what shader setup you have, if your engine doesn't support a 'classic' rendering pipeline then 3DC will be of no use to you for texturing.

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For visualization purposes there are plenty of render options available, and implementing any one of them could be useful to 3DC users I imagine.

 

PBR however is unique, in that it requires a fundamentally different approach to texturing then the 'classic' diffuse+spec workflow (which is being abandoned by the games industry) that 3DC is currently based around. Lacking PBR support is a major workflow issue; This isn't just a matter of shader incompatibility between 3DC and engines; no matter what shader setup you have, if your engine doesn't support a 'classic' rendering pipeline then 3DC will be of no use to you for texturing.

 

Exactly. 3DC is primarily a gaming content creation tool, picking up a render engine would be pointless to the existing user base, going with PBR viewport implementation would not only retain customers, it might get new customers and it would likely ensure that it doesn't die off as archaic software. Fortunately or unfortunately, having PBR at this point means 3DC is here to say in regards to content creation. At least for texturing.

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Exactly. 3DC is primarily a gaming content creation tool, picking up a render engine would be pointless to the existing user base, going with PBR viewport implementation would not only retain customers, it might get new customers and it would likely ensure that it doesn't die off as archaic software. Fortunately or unfortunately, having PBR at this point means 3DC is here to say in regards to content creation. At least for texturing.

I know plenty of people who use 3dcoat within an animation pipeline, so I wouldn't necessarily call it mainly a gaming content creation tool :). Especially if it supports multi tile uvs, 4k textures, and deep displacement. The PBR system within Substance stems from Disney's BRDF model, and contrary to what some people might believe, it is extremely useful and necessary. I'm sure that a lot of you know this, but having the ability to use Image Based Lighting within the texturing viewport is crucial. That is the only true way of testing how the texture/shader will behave under different lighting conditions. That is exactly why rendering engines have been pushing for physically plausible shading for quite some time now. Though integrating an engine like Cycles or Octane is most likely not necessary (since those engines deal with raytracing), a good IBL viewport would be a fantastic addition/must to 3dcoat.  

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I know plenty of people who use 3dcoat within an animation pipeline, so I wouldn't necessarily call it mainly a gaming content creation tool :). Especially if it supports multi tile uvs, 4k textures, and deep displacement. The PBR system within Substance stems from Disney's BRDF model, and contrary to what some people might believe, it is extremely useful and necessary. I'm sure that a lot of you know this, but having the ability to use Image Based Lighting within the texturing viewport is crucial. That is the only true way of testing how the texture/shader will behave under different lighting conditions. That is exactly why rendering engines have been pushing for physically plausible shading for quite some time now. Though integrating an engine like Cycles or Octane is most likely not necessary (since those engines deal with raytracing), a good IBL viewport would be a fantastic addition/must to 3dcoat.  

 

I know, I am one of those people :) (Most of the work I do is intended for print and web ads). My main concern is that if Andrew starts to work on a render engine it will detract from other areas that are absolutely needed, like Multi-UV supprt, Multi-Tile UV support, vector maps, etc.. I'm not against integrating another engine that already exists, but to be frank, I have one already (two really) and I'd never use another.

 

I'd rather see the things we have get fixed and enhanced.

 

 

On the topic of of the UV stuff, I've been requesting Multi-UV support and Multi-Tile UV support for a long time, and a lot recently. He said it is a matter of changing how his engine works with UV maps, because right now it only supports one. That said, if a lot of people want it and he sees that, I'm sure he'll implement it. It's a matter of volume of user need in most cases.

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You mean UV tiling like Mari supports? Yea, that'd be nice. I have to wonder though if 3DC could handle a lot of tiled maps like that at once considering its a bit slow already with a single 4k texture.

 

If you want a feature implemented or changed/fixed in 3DC it's not just about how many people want it, it's about choosing your battles and persistence. No matter what you want there's a good chance you'll meet opposition to the change due to nay-sayers believing the time would be better spent elsewhere, and you'll need to defend you're position tirelessly.

It took me a year of bringing up layer groups repeatedly before they were implemented, and there were several people that obviously didn't want them to happen. One voice doesn't mean a lot, but if you can get people discussing an issue, whether they're for or against it, the chances of 3DC programmers/Andrew taking note and doing something about it go up exponentially.

 

As far as PBR vs Cycles, just like everything else it's going to come down to persistence of the userbase. If we have 2-3 people that really want PBR/Cycles to happen and at least one of them pushes it endlessly above any other thing they may want implemented, I'm sure it'll happen eventually.

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I know, I am one of those people :) (Most of the work I do is intended for print and web ads). My main concern is that if Andrew starts to work on a render engine it will detract from other areas that are absolutely needed, like Multi-UV supprt, Multi-Tile UV support, vector maps, etc.. I'm not against integrating another engine that already exists, but to be frank, I have one already (two really) and I'd never use another.

 

I'd rather see the things we have get fixed and enhanced.

 

 

On the topic of of the UV stuff, I've been requesting Multi-UV support and Multi-Tile UV support for a long time, and a lot recently. He said it is a matter of changing how his engine works with UV maps, because right now it only supports one. That said, if a lot of people want it and he sees that, I'm sure he'll implement it. It's a matter of volume of user need in most cases.

I absolutely agree with you. High texture resolution has become a necessity in my workflow, and multi-tile UV/ udim made that possible. At this point, I have to manually convert all my output files to udim from 3dCoat. The conversion process might sound a bit painful, but its better than having to daisy chain a shader in maya.  Although I really love what the Allegorithmic and Quixel teams are doing, I have to agree that robust UV Tile/udim support is still the most needed feature. We're heading towards higher and higher res content, and single 4k maps are not going to cut it anymore. 

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i do agree with Javis too, maybe the good time to create the own 3dcoat Roadmap like Epic, or unity did it recently ?

 

example of road map for the Unreal engine 4 :

https://trello.com/b/gHooNW9I/ue4-roadmap

He has some new programmers to have to train (get up to speed might be a better way of saying it), so I imagine it's going to be rather difficult laying out a road map. Some people are banging the drum for Paint Room related tools and PGR shaders, etc. But there are some LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG-standing major feature requests that are going to get stepped all over if that occurs. The one MAJOR missing feature in the Voxel Sculpting room is Sculpt Layers (per object....not simply a hierarchy tree like it is now). It leaves a big enough gap in ones workflow, that most experienced ZB or MB artist pass when they try sculpting in 3D Coat. It's like a Graphic Designer having only one layer to work with in Photoshop.

 

I agree on most of these, but probably differ in priority/order that it's done. I doubt anyone is going get what they want when they want. :)

Ooops...typo. I meant PBR shaders, not PGR

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i do agree with Javis too, maybe the good time to create the own 3dcoat Roadmap like Epic, or unity did it recently ?

 

example of road map for the Unreal engine 4 :

https://trello.com/b/gHooNW9I/ue4-roadmap

 

Thanks for the heads up on the web based tool. I'll make sure Andrew sees this, maybe it will inspire him to do so. :)

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Substance Painter is not a renderer,you get nice presentation shots with post-effects but you only have one shader and you can't load custom cubemaps for lighting(t think...).Toolbag has multiple shaders(skin shader with sss ect...),light maps ect....actually  they are very much made to work as a combo. Latest versions Toolbag even allow the direct rendering of substances files themselves ,,,

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You could load every hdr or exr into your viewport for the lightning that you have.

Not sure if all shapes are supportet, but i use always latlong hdr maps.

 

And yes, there is only one shader at this time.

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