Jump to content
3DCoat Forums

Substance Painter Beta 7 Update and Roadmap (YouTube)


Recommended Posts

I really like where Substance Painter is heading, its an incredibly promising app. I'm especially interested in topology based painting, and love the idea of particle brushes.

But at the same time, parametric painting presents a lot of issues with PSD interoperability (and every studio/client I've ever worked with requires PSDs). Until they can solve that I don't see it being able to overtake 3DC.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mari is a purely projection-based painting app, ie. the brush does not follow the models surface but works in screen-space only. It's non-parametric (so scaling up/down will result in loss of quality like in any other painting app other then Substance), and lacks particle brushes. Of course you can't bring in substance files either to aid in texture creation.

 

That said, Mari has basically everything else SP does. It also has full PSD support (adjustment layers and everything), full ABR brush support (photoshop brushes work perfectly in it), and can handle multiple very high resolution textures (up to 32k).

Edited by PolyHertz
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member

Physically based rendering is the main reason why 3dc will not being use anymore for texturing with game development. All the major 3D game engine use now le PBR algorhytm (reflectance or metalness workflow) ,so cryengine, Unreal engine 4, Unity 5, and many more.

 

Layer and mask system in substance painter is the best example of what Andrew should mimic for 3dcoat, I think that when Andrew say  "Layer ala Photoshop", allegorithmic did it in SD/SP :)

 

The Ui and the app is greatly intuitive and very efficient, and each component of the ui reacts correctly

You can paint a mask directly into a layer Group. This is also what i would like to have in 3Dcoat when i had in past time to texture some models with it.

 

But the biggest problem of 3d coat is the viewport rendering, and because of the global lightning system, handle the ambient light intensity and the primary light intensity settings is going insane everytime i tried to work on textures.

I would just like to have a traditional  globale lightning  with uniform lightning,  and with a IBL map support. (for specular reflections and with metalness workflow) so we can defie where we want to display metal and reflection and where we won't to bother with it, like for skin shading.

The problem in 3DC is that shaders on the viewport lightning influences a lot how will look your final outputed textures. If the lightning setup and the shader applied to your model is not proper in your 3dc viewport,

the albedo/diffuse map should looks very different from what you expect  before you open them in PS, in comparaison to what you see in 3dcoat viewport.

So you have to edit the texture in photoshop to fix how will look your texture in your game engine, and that not really handfull.

 

Most of people that make model for game industry, use xnormal for normal map/AO baking, and Quixel or SD/SP for the rest of the work.

Factually all texturing workflow is made out of 3DC.

Probably 3DCoat dev team should focus on Sculpting room and apply a deep Refine of  the shading and rendering in the viewport, adding some preset for each type of use, and simply a lot at that level.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe I just don't know reality when I see it, but after looking at the Substance Painter gallery showreel, I became convinced that the conglomeration of artists who compiled those model examples must not know what reality looks like anymore.  I do know that the real world (man made) is not composed of materials that look like those applied to objects in the gallery.

 

It's a subject for another discussion, but it raises the question about what comprises reality to those who have spent the majority of their lives "inside" one video game or another.  To these sorts of people, substances and places and the things that inhabit them have become what these people perceive as reality - every day.  At least this is the kind of "real" visual experience that dominates their consciousness.

 

It proves to me that the current trend of authoring computer graphics has wandered from that of reproducing actual visual reality to producing a synthetic reality that conforms to that standard which is contained in the most popularly played computer games.  This is the prevailing goal, it seems.

 

And, to me, continual exposure to the kind of substances and worlds and objects and people that populate the modern video game is very tiresome - a never ending stereotype of visual nothingness.

 

 

Greg Smith

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member
IMPORTANT UPDATE: We authorize the use of the Indie version of Substance Painter to any indie / company generating less than US$10K a year in revenue (based on prior fiscal year). If you are above this limit you should purchase/upgrade to the Pro version on the Allegorithmic website.

For particular cases, please contact us directly so that we can find a relevant business model.

 

 

Well, it's commercial, but only up to 10k revenue per year ...

Edited by Tiles
Link to comment
Share on other sites

ty for clear info Tiles ;)

--------------------------------

watching this feature at 0:43

 

Each Material has its own Layer Stack

 

 

Will be useful to add this option to 3DC ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member

Nicolas Liatti responds on steam forum about the 10k revenue limit , i quote you his purpose;

 

 

 

The Indie License is what used to be called the "non-commercial" license. However, there are thousands of small Indie and freelancers who make less than $10K with their work, that's why we decided to change it and allow people to use it for commercial work.

This limit allows as well all the Indie studio to use this license during the development and take low risks, and just switch to the commercial license when their game is a sucess.

 

Carlosan, to me the whole layer system must to be refont in 3dcoat , i mean at the ui level. I would like to have the possibility to do some multiple selections , grouping, renaming, when there is a lot of layers so the big mess just to rename and rehandle the hierarchy. I am not talking only about the the paint room but also for the voxeltree,retopogroup etc..

how the ui element respond is really annoying, and require more reactivity, i got so much problem when i have to move dozen of voxtree into an empty group so i can move them all at the same time and apply the transform tool on the parent group.

 

By the way having layer stack per materials should also be helpful, but it stucks at the UI level, just more mess into the ui to bother with.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Reputable Contributor

I think SD and SP both...not to mention the Quixel (dDo/nDo)... put a lot of pressure on Andrew to step up his game, in terms of keeping 3D Coat relevant in the Games industry. I think his work on Paint layers is going in the right direction. It's already pretty darn powerful and very intuitive. If you know Photoshop, you basically know how to use layers in 3D Coat. If he adds mask thumbnails (I've asked him a half dozen times about this), it will be even better.

 

With that said, I think it might be a better idea to maybe partner with Quixel to license an integrated plugin for 3D Coat, as dDo operates as such in Photoshop

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

I think SD and SP both...not to mention the Quixel (dDo/nDo)... put a lot of pressure on Andrew to step up his game, in terms of keeping 3D Coat relevant in the Games industry. I think his work on Paint layers is going in the right direction. It's already pretty darn powerful and very intuitive. If you know Photoshop, you basically know how to use layers in 3D Coat. If he adds mask thumbnails (I've asked him a half dozen times about this), it will be even better.

 

With that said, I think it might be a better idea to maybe partner with Quixel to license an integrated plugin for 3D Coat, as dDo operates as such in Photoshop

 

 

I'd love to see Andrew do a partnership with Octane  Render too; just toss out the renderer he's got now and get a really specialized one that will pump out awesome real time hyperreal renders GPU and CPU...

Edited by L'Ancien Regime
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Reputable Contributor

I'd love to see Andrew do a partnership with Octane  Render too; just toss out the renderer he's got now and get a really specialized one that will pump out awesome real time hyperreal renders GPU and CPU...

I was thinking of asking him to talk to the folks at Thea (because you can render without a GPU, but it's as about as fast as it gets with a beefy Intel CPU + CUDA card)...but before Raul headed back to Cuba, Andrew tasked him to port Blender Cycles to 3D Coat. I don't know if that is still on the To Do list or not, but it makes more $ense. :D Thea or Octane would increase the price by about $400 or so. Cycles...little or nothing. They released the Cycles code via a permissive license. So, anyone can potentially write a Cycles plugin for Maya, Max, C4D, etc. Even 3D Coat.

 

I thought I recalled Andrew mentioning something about needing a nodal material network system...so, hopefully he has someone (maybe Raul?) working on that. Raul said he really liked working on rendering, so let's keep our fingers crossed. I think it would be a game-changer...especially if it had a link to Blender, where the materials created/used in 3D Coat translated directly to those in Blender's, seamlessly.

 

It's probably going to take Andrew a year or so to get the new programmers up to speed enough to where all these wiz-bang features start coming at a blistering pace.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I thought I recalled Andrew mentioning something about needing a nodal material network system...so, hopefully he has someone (maybe Raul?) working on that.

 

 

That would be Andrew himself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Contributor

@ABN

Why did you want such a complicated render like Octane or Cycles and not a PBR based Render like Marmorset Toolbag or Yebis 2?

I only know Yebis 2 from Substance Designer and it is in my eyes much more easier to use than Cycles.

Are there any reasons for this?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Reputable Contributor

To be honest, I don't know that much about Yebis, and PBR standing for "Physically Based Rendering" would suggest an Unbiased path tracer....which Octane, Thea and I believe (not positive) Cycles is. And to be honest, PBR doesn't mean that much to me during the Texturing phase if I have to setup all the shaders/materials again in a major 3D App. In this case, integrating Cycles into 3D Coat could (theoretically) allow the individual to save to a Blender file, where the shaders/materials can used as is.

 

I don't really know what Andrew has in mind, so it's just speculation at this point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Contributor

What i mean is more like this.

Yebis or Marmorset are Realtime Renders like Game Engines. Cycles and Octane are not realy Realtime.

Every movement in the 3d view or change on the shaders causes a rerender of the scene that could takes, depending on szene and shaders, a few or more seconds.

I know that from Cycles and it sucks. In Substance Designer with Yebis it is always Realtime.

 

That brings me to the shaders/materials.

In Yebis and i think Marmorset, too, there is only one Shader/Material. Everything is controlled by a roghness and metallic map.

This is a very easy way to controll and setup your shaders.

In Cycles and maybe Octane you need different shaders for diffuse, glossy, glass and all the other shaders.

This is very complicated for me.

 

I see the benefit of a good render like Cycles or Octane, but i would prefer something like Yebis or Marmorset for 3d coat.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[PBR] Physically Based Rendering Encyclopedia

 

PBR is a must to actually work with gamengines, dont waste time in another shader system.

 

Cycles shader system is convolute, intricate, please dont force the user to understand a shader system with no use in any industry area but internally for render visualization.

And now that Brecht left the development joining Arnold team... the cycles future is very unclear...

 

marmoset, ddo suite... thats the way

 

------------------------------------

and about Cycles standalone 

 

As far as I know, the standalone is still a work in progress and is not exactly the highest priority at the moment (though it's far enough along to render a wide array of scenes in).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Reputable Contributor

[PBR] Physically Based Rendering Encyclopedia

 

PBR is a must to actually work with gamengines, dont waste time in another shader system.

 

Cycles shader system is convolute, intricate, please dont force the user to understand a shader system with no use in any industry area but internally for render visualization.

And now that Brecht left the development joining Arnold team... the cycles future is very unclear...

 

marmoset, ddo suite... thats the way

 

------------------------------------

and about Cycles standalone 

 

As far as I know, the standalone is still a work in progress and is not exactly the highest priority at the moment (though it's far enough along to render a wide array of scenes in).

"a shader system with no use in any industry area but internally for render visualization"  This part of your quote is far from true...

 

Cycles and the Compositing editor were used to make...

Tears of Steel.

 

Caminandes /gran-dillama

 

The upcoming Project Gooseberry Pilot Plot will also use Cycles and push it's development. Developers come and go with Blender, that has been the case for a long time. Blender and Cycles will continue to develop.

 

Does it mean cycles is the most fantastic renderer on the block, no...  but is far from just being for internal render visualization.

 

In my statement I have not saying Cycles should or should not be a plug-in for 3DC but the statement made is just not true.

Edited by digman
Link to comment
Share on other sites

sorry digman, all those projects were indie.

 

and... i was not clear, sorry about that

 

 

let me try again

 

please dont force the user to understand a shader system IF BEING IMPLEMENTED INTERNALLY IN 3DC  will have no use in any industry* area but internally for render visualization

 

for me industry* = working in games, visualization, or VFX (using Crytek UNR4, Unity, Arnold, Renderman, Max, Maya, Houdini)

 

--------------------------------

 

- Substance Designer features a new physically based rendering and shader system, giving you true to form feedback as to what the materials and surfaces will look like rendered or in the game engine.

- Marmoset2 users can preview...

- Quixel suite: DDO ships with calibration support for a multitude of rendering engines including vRay, Maxwell, UE4, CryEngine, Keyshot, Toolbag 2 and Unity 5.

 

 

To force 3DC team to develop support for Cycles... well... my Pov... big waste of time.

 

 

and let me be clear in one point too:

i use Blender, as hobbyist and making payed works... but for 3DC... i only hope to see 3DC playing the big leagues.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Reputable Contributor

What i mean is more like this.

Yebis or Marmorset are Realtime Renders like Game Engines. Cycles and Octane are not realy Realtime.

Every movement in the 3d view or change on the shaders causes a rerender of the scene that could takes, depending on szene and shaders, a few or more seconds.

I know that from Cycles and it sucks. In Substance Designer with Yebis it is always Realtime.

 

That brings me to the shaders/materials.

In Yebis and i think Marmorset, too, there is only one Shader/Material. Everything is controlled by a roghness and metallic map.

This is a very easy way to controll and setup your shaders.

In Cycles and maybe Octane you need different shaders for diffuse, glossy, glass and all the other shaders.

This is very complicated for me.

 

I see the benefit of a good render like Cycles or Octane, but i would prefer something like Yebis or Marmorset for 3d coat.

The problem is PBR in that sense is tailored for game engines, and gaming is just one segment of the CG industry. Game engines have their own rendering...engines, so I think the best way to meet both needs is not to jump on some new fad, but stick with a Cycles plugin, and if you are developing assets/textures for a game pipeline, then you could use a CgFX shader rather than an HLSL shader.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Reputable Contributor

sorry digman, all those projects were indie.

 

and... i was not clear, sorry about that

 

 

let me try again

 

please dont force the user to understand a shader system IF BEING IMPLEMENTED INTERNALLY IN 3DC  will have no use in any industry* area but internally for render visualization

 

for me industry* = working in games, visualization, or VFX (using Crytek UNR4, Unity, Arnold, Renderman, Max, Maya, Houdini)

 

--------------------------------

 

- Substance Designer features a new physically based rendering and shader system, giving you true to form feedback as to what the materials and surfaces will look like rendered or in the game engine.

- Marmoset2 users can preview... Quixel suite users can preview...

 

 

To force 3DC team to develop support for Cycles... well... my Pov... big waste of time.

 

 

and let me be clear in one point too:

i use Blender, as hobbyist and making payed works... but for 3DC... i only hope to see 3DC playing the big leagues.

It wouldn't be "support" for Blender. It would be porting a powerful GPU/CPU hybrid rendering inside 3D Coat. If you told people that VRay was going to be integrated in 3D Coat for little or nothing extra, everyone would all excited about it. Well, Cycles is not far from VRay in many respects, and in some cases, it's flat out more advanced. It can do a lot of things VRay still can't and probably won't be able to do for some time. GPU/CPU hybrid acceleration as a PRODUCTION, not just a preview, render, being the chiefest. Interactive rendering of smoke, fire/fluids is another. Interactive SSS, and hair. VRay still can't do that.

 

If someone wants to render an animation of their assets, they at least would have the option to sent them to Blender with all the shaders setup (hopefully that kind of integration is a feature). Personally, I don't care about "The Big Boys." It is a powerful feature and one that would elevate 3D Coat's own rendering and materials setup capability.

 

For a game pipeline, again....using CGFX shaders, one could see realistic results in the viewport, realitime. I also think it's time 3D Coat was updated to DX11. It would impact performance and viewport shading capabilities, considerably.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

cycles standalone with apache license system (not cycles internal GPL) is not finished... is still in early development, the BIG Cycles developer left Blender to join Solid Angle - Arnold

 

and are thinking to add it to 3DC ?

 

what about support, development, fix bugs or new features ?

 

users talk about consistence, unify UI, unify workflows, fix bugs... and the idea is to add a very early development, with no support and really very unclear future ?

 

sorry but for this idea, my vote is -1

------------------------------

History

Cycles-render-engine-released-with-permissive-license

http://code.blender.org/index.php/2013/08/cycles-render-engine-released-with-permissive-license/

 

was a

Brecht van Lommel & Ton Roosendaal idea

 

But NOW the big news are:

Brecht van Lommel leaves Blender Institute, will work on Arnold renderer

 

see... the panorama had changed, the situation is another... VERY different... stop beating a dead horse... another way is needed... this is closed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...